Full Stainless Brew Setup... Concern?

[Troxs]

As some may have noted I recently decided to build a new 10 gallon BIAB setup, for now. The future may hold a 2-vessel rims setup, or an outboard HERMS with a CFC -- that is still on the table, but for now I plan on sticking to BIAB and perfecting the technique.

Anyway... I need to upgrade my IC. Currently I have a 25' x 3/8" immersion chiller that I made years ago, and it just isn't going to cut it anymore for a couple reasons. Obviously the first is the long chill time for a 10 gallon to the kegs batch, and second I'm not very found of copper. The possibility of corrosion tends to worry me (I'm not sure if this is really even an issue with proper care, its probably not, but I've been thinking about it.)

I am planning to purchase a 50' x 1/2" OD IC from NY Brew Supply on Amazon, but I've read somewhere that some copper is needed for brewing as an all stainless set up could lead to off flavors. Is this true? Would I be better off purchasing a copper IC of the same dimensions?

EDIT: Regardless of which I choose would it be better to use a submersible pump to pump ice water through the chiller, or use a pre-chiller coil in the loop to cool my batch? I live in New Orleans, so the ground water can get into the upper 70's during the summer months. If I go with a pump, what size/spec pump would I need?

 

[andrewmaixner]

I had a similar concern about copper cleaning, and I'm using a 3/8" custom all-SS counterflow from NYBrewSupply. No copper whatsoever in my system (all stainless/silicone/teflon). I haven't had any off-flavor-issues, 10 batches so far on this setup.

If you were worried about needing copper, though, you could very easily strip and clean some copper wire, and drop it in at some point. It would cost you a dollar and be reusable.

I'm really enjoying the counterflow, even though it's stainless (slightly slower cooling than copper) and smaller (30ft), I can use it to recirculate-cool the whole batch to about 110 and then redirect the output into a fermenter to come out at 65-70F. 15-gallon batches still cool painfully slowly, but at least I can walk away for a half hour and come back to it.

 

[Troxs]

Stainless counterflow... I think I would definitely like that piece, but I don't see them anywhere on their site, or any others. It would work perfectly as if I plan to upgrade in the future to a C-HERMS.

I thought about taking a small piece of copper tube (1" or so) from the hardware store to make up for the lack of copper and just toss it into the boil kettle 10-15 minutes before flame out. Which may not be necessary.

 

[andrewmaixner]

Stainless counterflow... I think I would definitely like that piece, but I don't see them anywhere on their site, or any others. It would work perfectly as if I plan to upgrade in the future to a C-HERMS.

I emailed them to get it made. It was $110 shipped for this item in stainless, last year:
http://www.nybrewsupply.com/beer-ho...chillers/deluxe-counterflow-wort-chiller.html

 

[Troxs]

I emailed them to get it made. It was $110 shipped for this item in stainless, last year:
http://www.nybrewsupply.com/beer-ho...chillers/deluxe-counterflow-wort-chiller.html

Stainless outside and in? I was thinking it was full stainless tubing for both outer and inner tube. That would be pretty cool as well, but I think I would like to see a larger inner tube if nothing else to make sure no plugs would occur and to open up flow.

I just did a quick search and saw this http://www.learntobrew.com/counter-flow-stainless-steel-wort-chiller/ but I've never heard of the store, and it is more expensive which I likely wouldn't get anytime soon so I'd still be using the Immersion for a while.

 

[chudsonvt]

I no longer use an IC. I have switched to a chill plate. But because the steal plates in the chiller are brazed together with copper, there is still technically some copper exposure. I go from flame-out to pitching yeast in a little over 10 minutes with my 5 gallon setup. You can size your chill plate accordingly, if you go this route.

 

[Troxs]

I no longer use an IC. I have switched to a chill plate. But because the steal plates in the chiller are brazed together with copper, there is still technically some copper exposure. I go from flame-out to pitching yeast in a little over 10 minutes with my 5 gallon setup. You can size your chill plate accordingly, if you go this route.

I thought about a chill plate, but I worry about having it clog (which is why I seem to lean more toward the IC). I don't use a hop spider or bags, I just toss my hops in. I know with a good whirlpool there "shouldn't" be any troubles, but again, I'm always going to be worried.

 

[snowveil]

All stainless will not lead to off flavors. Not sure where that came from. Copper has the ability to add trace minerals to your wort for yeast health, but it's certainly not necessary and if you're *really* worried about it just use yeast nutrient.

Copper has better heat conductivity than Stainless, so it'll cool faster than stainless by the numbers. In practice, though, the difference on our scale is negligible.

I use a 50ft stainless immersion chiller from NY Brew Supply and I've been very happy with it.

I also recommend pumping ice water directly through the IC with a submersible pump instead of using a pre-chiller. With a pre-chiller, you're relying on the thermal conductivity of the prechiller itself to get the water going into your IC lower. With the submersible pump, you're sending that ice water directly into the IC in the first place. You can then recirculate your source water, replacing and topping off ice and water as necessary. It's kind of a no-brainer in my opinion.

 

[Troxs]

All stainless will not lead to off flavors. Not sure where that came from. Copper has the ability to add trace minerals to your wort for yeast health, but it's certainly not necessary and if you're *really* worried about it just use yeast nutrient.

Copper has better heat conductivity than Stainless, so it'll cool faster than stainless by the numbers. In practice, though, the difference on our scale is negligible.

I use a 50ft stainless immersion chiller from NY Brew Supply and I've been very happy with it.

I also recommend pumping ice water directly through the IC with a submersible pump instead of using a pre-chiller. With a pre-chiller, you're relying on the thermal conductivity of the prechiller itself to get the water going into your IC lower. With the submersible pump, you're sending that ice water directly into the IC in the first place. You can then recirculate your source water, replacing and topping off ice and water as necessary. It's kind of a no-brainer in my opinion.

The submersible pump was likely my go to plan ... if I stay with a IC. I have a place near my house which will dump 20lbs of bulk ice into a cooler for $1.50. I figure I'd fill my ice chest that morning with 20/40lbs and add water when chill time starts. Hopefully that would be enough to equalize both temps down to 70* without even needing to hook up the garden hose.

 

[snowveil]

The submersible pump was likely my go to plan ... if I stay with a IC. I have a place near my house which will dump 20lbs of bulk ice into a cooler for $1.50. I figure I'd fill my ice chest that morning with 20/40lbs and add water when chill time starts. Hopefully that would be enough to equalize both temps down to 70* without even needing to hook up the garden hose.

Definitely run off your initial waste water first. I try to kind of match the incoming water from the faucet into my ice bath (I brew in the kitchen) with the flow of the water coming out of the IC going down the drain. The water coming out of your IC is going to be very, very hot at first so it's best to discard it or save it in buckets to use for cleaning water, laundry, etc. Once the temperature of your wort has dropped down to 90-100*F then recirculate with ice. You don't want to get stuck in a position where your recirculation water levels out to 90* and your ground water temperature is also too high to bring your wort down.

 

[Troxs]

Definitely run off your initial waste water first. I try to kind of match the incoming water from the faucet into my ice bath (I brew in the kitchen) with the flow of the water coming out of the IC going down the drain. The water coming out of your IC is going to be very, very hot at first so it's best to discard it or save it in buckets to use for cleaning water, laundry, etc. Once the temperature of your wort has dropped down to 90-100*F then recirculate with ice. You don't want to get stuck in a position where your recirculation water levels out to 90* and your ground water temperature is also too high to bring your wort down.

I hear that frequently, but honestly laziness makes me not want to hook up the hose to my house, then disconnect and connect to the pump. It's actually the only real reason I thought about using a prechiller. I have seriously thought about making a 50' coil (like a jockey box) and moving my ground water through it... because I'm lazy haha

 

[andrewmaixner]

Stainless outside and in? I was thinking it was full stainless tubing for both outer and inner tube. That would be pretty cool as well, but I think I would like to see a larger inner tube if nothing else to make sure no plugs would occur and to open up flow.

I just did a quick search and saw this http://www.learntobrew.com/counter-flow-stainless-steel-wort-chiller/ but I've never heard of the store, and it is more expensive which I likely wouldn't get anytime soon so I'd still be using the Immersion for a while.

I had initially seen that, then noted that it no longer was for sale from any of the home brewing suppliers that initially carried it. I contacted several vendors, and they all said that they stopped carrying it because the steel was too thick, leading to even worse heat transfer, so that it was really crappy for homebrew needs.

 

[itsnotrequired]

Stainless outside and in? I was thinking it was full stainless tubing for both outer and inner tube. That would be pretty cool as well, but I think I would like to see a larger inner tube if nothing else to make sure no plugs would occur and to open up flow.

I just did a quick search and saw this http://www.learntobrew.com/counter-flow-stainless-steel-wort-chiller/ but I've never heard of the store, and it is more expensive which I likely wouldn't get anytime soon so I'd still be using the Immersion for a while.

i started out with a stainless counterflow chiller like in the link above but ditched it after seven brews or so. it just took too long. i knew it would be a bit slower than a copper counterflow chiller but it was ridiculous, pushing 45 minutes or so to do 11 gallons. i had to slow my wort flow down significantly to get a decent temp into my fermentor. i moved to a plate chiller for my last four brews and it has been night and day. if doing a lightly hopped beer, i can take 11 gallons down to 65 degrees in about 20 minutes. cleaning is more of a chore with the plate chiller but i'm more interested in cooling the wort as quickly as possible than additional cleaning.

and it isn't that big of a deal to clean. i do a quick backflow out of the faucet for a few seconds to get the bulk of the hop debris out and then hook it up to one of my pumps, backflowing hot pbw for 10 minutes or so and then reversing the flow for another ten. one more backflush for five minutes and then i rinse. the time to clean may be long but i am doing other things like cleaning the boil kettle while the pbw recirculates.

 

[Troxs]

i started out with a stainless counterflow chiller like in the link above but ditched it after seven brews or so. it just took too long. i knew it would be a bit slower than a copper counterflow chiller but it was ridiculous, pushing 45 minutes or so to do 11 gallons. i had to slow my wort flow down significantly to get a decent temp into my fermentor. i moved to a plate chiller for my last four brews and it has been night and day. if doing a lightly hopped beer, i can take 11 gallons down to 65 degrees in about 20 minutes. cleaning is more of a chore with the plate chiller but i'm more interested in cooling the wort as quickly as possible than additional cleaning.

and it isn't that big of a deal to clean. i do a quick backflow out of the faucet for a few seconds to get the bulk of the hop debris out and then hook it up to one of my pumps, backflowing hot pbw for 10 minutes or so and then reversing the flow for another ten. one more backflush for five minutes and then i rinse. the time to clean may be long but i am doing other things like cleaning the boil kettle while the pbw recirculates.

I priced both a SS IC from NY Brew Supply, and a 20 plate from BrewHardware at the end of the day (for all I would need) the price is about $3 difference.

I honestly haven't wanted a plate, not because of the cleaning, but because of the possibility of a clog. Do you use a hop sock or hop blocker? What if all I had was a diptube and a whirlpool? I would likely recirc the plate back to the kettle then settle and drain to my fermenter with the plate just to leave the cold break and because I have 80+ degree ground water in the summer.

 

[jekeane]

I have a Eherms system and I stuck with an Immersion Chiller after weighing my options. I went with the jaded hydra and have 5 batches with it currently. I couldn't be more pleased with the purchase. I added hose quick disconnects from harbor freight to switch between ground water and Ice batch. But following their directions of limiting input hose length, using max water flow, and whirl pooling my wort I have timed 6.25 gallons from boiling to 64° in 14 minutes and that includes swapping for the ice bath. I have gone down to 48° with the same volume in 14 minutes using a bag of ice in 15g of water i kept in my lagering chamber overnight before brew day.

I run the first 20 gallons into my washing maching (which is the amount a super load takes) and then I run my ice bath water to buckets for my garden until i start to recirculate. I live in Florida where groundwater is rarely below 70°

 

[jwm1485]

When me and me friend started brewing together we both had setups for 5 gallon batches. Now that we do 11 gal batches we intertwined both of our 25 ft ICs to us on the 11 gal batch. We also recirculate ice water. It works great.

 

[GJOCONNELL]

not sure why there is so much fear using the plate chillers. I run a therm. 40 plate chiller and have had zero clog issues and I have done a couple pliny clones, hops lamb imperial brews which had a ton of hops....no clog issues. I do whirlpool for 15 minutes and toss the hops into star sanned bags.....

A CFC might be a better bet for you. Take your HLT fill with water and ice and gravity feed into the CFC.

 

[Troxs]

not sure why there is so much fear using the plate chillers. I run a therm. 40 plate chiller and have had zero clog issues and I have done a couple pliny clones, hops lamb imperial brews which had a ton of hops....no clog issues. I do whirlpool for 15 minutes and toss the hops into star sanned bags.....

A CFC might be a better bet for you. Take your HLT fill with water and ice and gravity feed into the CFC.

That is my thing... I don't use bags for my hops. I enjoy tossing them in free floating. Having a plate chiller means also getting a hop spider, or making sure I have bags handy for the boil.

I've tossed the idea around for plate, counterflow, and IC. So far IC is winning in my mind - but only because I don't feel like figuring a way to keep hop matter out of the CFC / Plate.

PS: Would a Hop Blocker/Anvil kettle strainer work to filter hops without putting a strain on the flow?

 

[jekeane]

That is my thing... I don't use bags for my hops. I enjoy tossing them in free floating. Having a plate chiller means also getting a hop spider, or making sure I have bags handy for the boil.

This is in the end one of the reasons I went with the hydra. I personally find that my hop profile is more to my liking and in line with beer smith when I just toss the hops in the kettle.

While It isn't super complicated to figure out how to keep hop debris out of the plate and cfc it is another factor I didn't want to add to my brew setup.

I also didn't want to add another item to clean at the end of the day. I know many people just backflush their chillers and are done with it. But after seeing what can get stuck in my herms coil after flushing and then back flushing I would want to recirculate pbw and rinse. Time I don't want to add to my day.

 

[Troxs]

This is in the end one of the reasons I went with the hydra. I personally find that my hop profile is more to my liking and in line with beer smith when I just toss the hops in the kettle.

While It isn't super complicated to figure out how to keep hop debris out of the plate and cfc it is another factor I didn't want to add to my brew setup.

I also didn't want to add another item to clean at the end of the day. I know many people just backflush their chillers and are done with it. But after seeing what can get stuck in my herms coil after flushing and then back flushing I would want to recirculate pbw and rinse. Time I don't want to add to my day.

How is the Hydra compared so a normal 50' of 1/2" copper tubing chiller? I see the design and here the claims of how "great" they are, but is it really that much faster?

 

[itsnotrequired]

I priced both a SS IC from NY Brew Supply, and a 20 plate from BrewHardware at the end of the day (for all I would need) the price is about $3 difference.

I honestly haven't wanted a plate, not because of the cleaning, but because of the possibility of a clog. Do you use a hop sock or hop blocker? What if all I had was a diptube and a whirlpool? I would likely recirc the plate back to the kettle then settle and drain to my fermenter with the plate just to leave the cold break and because I have 80+ degree ground water in the summer.

i went with counterflow to start with for the typical plate concerns: clogs and cleanliness. i chose stainless over copper because it is easier to keep clean compared to copper. everything else in my setup was stainless so why not? interesting to see the post above about contacting the vendors, steel being too thick to be effective.

i use a hopstopper and have had no clogging issues with the plate exchanger after four batches or so. this includes some larger ipa hop bills.

 

[andrewmaixner]

i went with counterflow to start with for the typical plate concerns: clogs and cleanliness. i chose stainless over copper because it is easier to keep clean compared to copper. everything else in my setup was stainless so why not? interesting to see the post above about contacting the vendors, steel being too thick to be effective.

Since I brought it up, do/did you use that specific stainless counterflow heat exchanger? (It was just that model that several vendors said was too thick) If so, what was your experience?

 

[jekeane]

How is the Hydra compared so a normal 50' of 1/2" copper tubing chiller? I see the design and here the claims of how "great" they are, but is it really that much faster?

I replaced a 50' 3/8" chiller that took on average with my FL water 40 minutes. I really am pleased / impressed with the thing.

 

[chudsonvt]

I thought about a chill plate, but I worry about having it clog (which is why I seem to lean more toward the IC). I don't use a hop spider or bags, I just toss my hops in. I know with a good whirlpool there "shouldn't" be any troubles, but again, I'm always going to be worried.

Yeah, as soon as I started using it, I started using bags and would just hang them off of my kettle handles. Now that I have started using bags, I really like the cleanliness of it. I wish I tried them earlier in my brewlationship. Hell, even using the bags has evolved for me. I used to try cleaning the nylon bags for reuse, but that was always a PITA. I have since switched to the cheap hop socks and just throw them away when done. Totally worth it

 

[Troxs]

I replaced a 50' 3/8" chiller that took on average with my FL water 40 minutes. I really am pleased / impressed with the thing.

I could see the increase over the 3/8" chiller. Mostly because the Hydra is basically 75' total feet of 3/8". I'm just curious to know the difference between it and a 1/2" chiller. I've read a few things that show a 2-4 minute difference (Hydra being the fastest) for 10 Gallon batches. It's hard for me to pay more for a 2 minute time difference though.

 

[itsnotrequired]

Since I brought it up, do/did you use that specific stainless counterflow heat exchanger? (It was just that model that several vendors said was too thick) If so, what was your experience?

i got mine from adventures in homebrewing but i suspect most of these vendors sourced from the same/similar suppliers. i can't say how thick the metal is in the chiller but see my previous post, it just took way to long. my goundwater was about 65 at the time i was using it. and even getting down to 70 took 50+ minutes. i even pre-chilled the cooling water with an old immersion chiller in a bucket (and recirculating water in that bucket) and that helped but it was still 40+ minutes.

switched to a plate chiller and i can get wort out of the chiller that is at the same temp as the groundwater. groundwater temps are much lower now that it is winter but even in fall, i found myself throttling back the water flow on the plate chiller, it was making the wort too cold!

but that did get me thinking, i should try that counterflow chiller again now that my groundwater temps are as cold as they will get, just heat up some water in my boil kettle. i really did like the convenience of the counterflow chiller, maybe something i can use in the winter months?

 

[andrewmaixner]

i got mine from adventures in homebrewing but i suspect most of these vendors sourced from the same/similar suppliers. i can't say how thick the metal is in the chiller but see my previous post, it just took way to long. my goundwater was about 65 at the time i was using it. and even getting down to 70 took 50+ minutes. i even pre-chilled the cooling water with an old immersion chiller in a bucket (and recirculating water in that bucket) and that helped but it was still 40+ minutes.

switched to a plate chiller and i can get wort out of the chiller that is at the same temp as the groundwater. groundwater temps are much lower now that it is winter but even in fall, i found myself throttling back the water flow on the plate chiller, it was making the wort too cold!

but that did get me thinking, i should try that counterflow chiller again now that my groundwater temps are as cold as they will get, just heat up some water in my boil kettle. i really did like the convenience of the counterflow chiller, maybe something i can use in the winter months?

thanks, that reflects exactly what the vendors told me about it -- just too thick of steel in there to allow fast heat exchange for fast cooling.

I'd sell it if I were you (and if you want non-cloggable stainless counterflow, get the custom stainless thing like from nybrewsupply. )