Frustrated Newbie with a few questions

[hoppyhoppyhippo]

So I have minimal experience brewing Cider. Given that I live in Northern New England I've been attempting to make Cider happen. It wasn't until my last batch that I realized the Cider I was buying contains Potassium Sorbate. Which explains why my 1 gallon batch worked fine but my 5 gallon really didn't. Like I got fermentation but I couldn't for the life of me get it down below 1.020 no matter how long I tried.

At this point I want to gather more information and explain what I want to do and any help is greatly appreciated.

So I found a local cider that doesn't use Potassium Sorbate. They use regular heat pasteurization. I'm hoping come the fall I'll have time to talk to a local orchard about getting 5 gallons of unpasteurized cider but I don't usually have a ton of time in the Fall. I know most places online say don't use unpasteurized cider but given that Potassium Sorbate clearly isn't working for me I think it's the best route to go. Am I wrong?

Second aside from Yeast Nutrient (I'm following the package instructions of 1 tsp per gallon of must) is there anything else I should be adding.

My next batch I'm going to attempt to make next week is going to be as follows. Tell me if it seems wrong

4.5 Gallons of Cider. I'm going to make a starter in half a gallon of cider the night before. The morning of I'll throw the cider into my fermenter, wrap it with my ferm wrap and use my inkbird to get the temp up to the high 60s. Pitch the starter and hopefully it will rip. I'm thinking about using Champagne Yeast to get a ripping fast fermentation.

Hopefully I will have it done in a week. I'll add potassium sorbate at this point and backsweeten in keg with another half gallon of Cider.

Does that sound like a solid approach?

 

[bernardsmith]

If you live in the NE many orchards that sell apple juice to the public will UV pasteurize and that is the juice you should use. Using heat to pasteurize apple juice makes for a cooked apple flavor, and while cooked apples taste wonderful in pies, they do not make a good cider.
Champagne yeast is like a sledge hammer. Sure it will rip through your juice, but it will rip through the juice much like a sledge hammer will crack open a walnut. You want yeast that enhances mouthfeel. you want a yeast that has an affinity for apples. You want a yeast that can play with malic acid (the primary acid in apples). I prefer 71B when I make cider but there are a number of other good yeasts that work nicely with apple juice.
What should you be adding other than nutrients? Well, most apple juice intended for non alcoholic cider is made with eating apples and not cider apples and most eating apples are low in acidity and low in tannins. Don't simply toss some "acid blend" into your juice. After fermentation is over and you are allowing the cider to age taste it. Does it need more bite, more sparkle? Then bench test how much acidity to add. As I wrote above, apples have malic acid not citric or tantaric so apple blend may not be the best approach.
As to tannins. You might want to add some tannin powder or some oak chips. Extracting flavors from the oak may take a couple of weeks or more but you can over-oak very quickly.
Last point: 71B (the yeast) seems to do something with the malic acid that transforms it into a less sharp acid (nothing to do with MLF) but that process can take about a year. So if you have some patience the flavors in your cider will be transformed from rogh and ready to something of beauty after about 9 months of aging. Your cider changes from being a caterpillar into a butterfly. Seriously.
Good luck!

 

[Chalkyt]

Yooper's sticky at the top of the page and Bernardsmith's wise words above says it all regarding what to add.

I started making cider with EC1118 (Champagne yeast) a few years go. It went fast to below 1.000 and left nothing. Then I found this forum... happy days!

Currently my go-to yeasts are WLP775 and SO4. At 60-65F they get through primary in a week or two (I would like it to take longer as temperatures drop closer to winter... low (temp) and slow (time)), then rack into secondary for as long as I like. Generally with these yeasts it bottoms out around 1.002-1.003 so some flavour is retained. after that you can back sweeten, pasteurise or whatever. I get a reasonable result in about four weeks, but four months+ (i.e. Spring) is better.

 

[wasully]

I'm always curious about what people are fermenting when they bash 1118. I've had a number of pro cidermakers(And really serious amateurs) recommend it, but it also gets consistently gets bashed for making a tasteless, formless cider.

Nobody accuses champagne of being boring. Maybe it just lets the fruit you have show their character. And if you're using boring dessert fruit, well, there you go. Whereas if you're using cider fruit with some character to show, it lets you show it. Maybe the problem is the fruit, not the yeast.

Just some musings.

Either way, a more "interesting, value-adding" yeast(something that drops tasty esters or phenols) is probably a better fit for those of us without genuine cider fruit.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Champagne yeast is like a sledge hammer. Sure it will rip through your juice, but it will rip through the juice much like a sledge hammer will crack open a walnut.

That's a really poor analogy. A sledgehammer is not designed to open a walnut.
On the other hand, practically any commercial wine yeast (and even beer yeast) is suited for making a decent cider.

Which yeast you prefer is partly matter of personal taste, but also depends on your process.

If you let a strong fermenting strain run free with uncontrolled temperature (especially over 60°F) and high nitrogen, you may indeed lose apple flavor. If you DO control temperature, EC-1118 can definitely make an excellent cider, and it's one of my favorites.

EC-1118 is one of a handful of strains recommended by renowned cidermaking author Claude Jolicoeur, so it's clearly not the horrible choice you're suggesting it is.

most eating apples are low in acidity

Does it make sense to be using a yeast that lowers acidity when you're using apples already low in acidity?

Last point: 71B (the yeast) seems to do something with the malic acid that transforms it into a less sharp acid (nothing to do with MLF) but that process can take about a year.

You're confusing 71B's action with MLF.

71B degrades malic acid via malo-ethanolic fermentation.
The malic enzyme converts malic acid into pyruvic acid, which is further metabolized to ethanol and carbon dioxide under fermentative conditions via the so-called malo-ethanolic pathway.

71B metabolizes 20-40% of malic acid during fermentation, not afterwards. If you're seeing the acid drop later, it's from bacterial MLF.
MLF converts malic acid into lactic acid, the "softer" acid. It's a completely different process performed by different microbes.

I know most places online say don't use unpasteurized cider but given that Potassium Sorbate clearly isn't working for me I think it's the best route to go. Am I wrong?

Do not use juice with potassium sorbate. Period. It will very likely have difficulty fermenting and/or the yeast will produce off-flavors.

Unpasteurized cider is perfectly fine to use and it's mainly what I've been using the last couple of years. The results from my wild fermentations have been excellent (no added yeast), but it's also fine if you want to use commercial yeast.

The morning of I'll throw the cider into my fermenter, wrap it with my ferm wrap and use my inkbird to get the temp up to the high 60s. Pitch the starter and hopefully it will rip. I'm thinking about using Champagne Yeast to get a ripping fast fermentation.

Faster isn't better. You'll want to keep the temperature under 60°F, with 50-55°F being better.

Apple flavor is volatile, meaning it evaporates easily. By lowering the temperature we lower the volatility and end up with more apple flavor in the cider after fermentation.

Also I want to mention that proper yeast rehydration technique is one of the most important parts of the process and shouldn't be overlooked.

Cheers!

 

[hoppyhoppyhippo]

Interesting, I've never known about the temp being low being a good thing. That's nice for me if it is cause my basement is incredibly cold.

 

[Sammy86]

I'm personally an S-04 guy for fermenting ciders...I let mine go about 14 days hit it with some potassium metabisulfate to cease yeast activity. Cold crash, back sweeten with 2 cans of AJ from concentrate and you have some delicious cider.

Ciders as well as beer only have to be as complicated as you make it!

 

[wasully]

If you let a strong fermenting strain run free with uncontrolled temperature (especially over 60°F) and high nitrogen, you may indeed lose apple flavor.

And standard commercial orcharding practices result in high nitrogen.

If you DO control temperature, EC-1118 can definitely make an excellent cider, and it's one of my favorites. EC-1118 is one of a handful of strains recommended by renowned cidermaking author Claude Jolicoeur, so it's clearly not the horrible choice you're suggesting it is.

Just to give people a more complete picture(if they don't have his book) he also advocates fermenting at ~50* and racks several times to reduce nutrients and slow the fermentation down.

Which reminds me, I need to reread the chapter on clearing/clarifying for my perry.

 

[dmtaylor]

Cider takes longer than a week to ferment out. Give it at least 4-6 weeks. Low and slow is the way to go.

 

[madscientist451]

I'm always curious about what people are fermenting when they bash 1118. I've had a number of pro cidermakers(And really serious amateurs) recommend it, but it also gets consistently gets bashed for making a tasteless, formless cider.

.

I've had lots of "pro" cider (and beer) that really isn't very good. But someone is buying it so I guess its OK for them.
To the OP, everyone has different taste preferences, make some 1 gallon batches using the same juice with different yeast and see what works for you.
Note that if you change up the juice blend, the yeast choice may have a different effect.

 

[Chalkyt]

Interesting comments regarding EC1118.

It was the first yeast that I used some years ago (suggested by the brewing supply shop) and those first results were quick and tasteless so I went looking for a yeast that was "better"... but, it probably wasn't the yeast's fault but more like mine. The first "Dr Google" article that I read on making cider said to ferment at 60-75F and add brown sugar. Great, my hot water tank cupboard is 75F so in it went and rattled along quite quickly, no time in secondary, bottled straight from primary with a spoonful of sugar per bottle when the bubbling stopped, no hydrometer... ah, the ignorant bliss of the first timer. The result was uninspiring.

With the wisdom of hindsight and some experience, especially fermenting as low as possible, maybe it is worth a second go with EC1118 under "proper" conditions. After all, Andrew Lea is strongly in favour of using wine yeasts for cider.

 

[Quilter]

I use plain old apple juice from a carton and find that I prefer Nottingham yeast - seems to leave more apple flavor behind! Mind you my boys both prefer the drier taste when I use s-04. I certainly agree that a cooler ferment helps.