Forced to use 1/4" (not 3/16") for 15' beer line?

[kal]

The copper line and coolant in the keg freezer (at 40F) wasn't keeping the taps and beer cooled enough so I put a copper loop through the freezer section of my bar fridge which happens to be just a few inches behind the taps. Now the temp of the cooling liquid is down from 55F to just above freezing and it keeps the taps/shanks/lines very nice and cool.

Everything's wrapped in aluminum foil and then wrapped with a couple of layers of pipe foam insulation (not show in the picture below).

It's so nicely chilled that it actually causes condensation on the taps in the summer when the air is more humid:

But I'm still having the extremely annoying problem that the first 2-3 oz tastes like crap if I go more than 3-4 hours between pours. For the last couple of months I've had to waste the first 2-3 oz of every pour as it seriously tastes like the beer's been sitting in a bucket full of rubber boots. It's like the rubber seals in the taps are given off flavour! Part of the reason to chill everything was so that I could pour without wasting the first 2-3 oz to foam or warm beer. That's all fixed but it seriously tastes like crap (and I'll drink just about anything). Does it on all 3 taps I have on the go now, from light lagers to heavy IPA's. All lines and taps have been cleaned and sanitized.

I started a separate thread about it here. So far one person's mentioned that they had the exact same problem when they went from cheaper rear sealing taps to forward sealing Ventmatic taps like mine. I just don't get it!

I'm going to replace one of the taps with a cheap rear sealing one just to confirm that the problem is indeed the taps. Anyone have one used one that they want to sell for me to try out? If it does cure the problem however I'm loath to get rid of the ~$200 worth of Ventmatic fwd sealing taps though.... I love these taps!

Kal

 

[kal]

Update: The beer hose is causing the off-taste. Nothing else. Replaced the line with better stuff and the problems gone.

Kal

 

[CBBaron]

Update: The beer hose is causing the off-taste. Nothing else. Replaced the line with better stuff and the problems gone.

Kal

Congratulations, I'm glad you found the problem. I'd hate to think that such a nice setup produced bad beer. Or caused you to waste so much beer.

I'd like to say that I am also very jealous.

Craig

 

[kal]

Thanks Craig!

Actually, finding beer line that doesn't cause any off-taste at all has turned into a much large project than I thought...

I've gone through 5-6 types now. Seems pretty much all vinyl line (PVC) causes some 'plastic' taint if the beer sits in it long enough no matter what unless it's got a glass-like barrier in it (what's they call "barrier tubing" in the industry). Barrier tubing's usually used for setups where the lines aren't 100% dedicated to a certain beverage. You can actually go from pop -> milk -> cranberry juice without any cross-taints as long as you flush the lines in-between.

I tested by leaving water in each hose/tubing type (not connected to anything) for 24-48 hours and then tasted and compared to just regular tap water:

(1) Original morebeer.com 3/16" generic clear vinyl hose (defective): Horrible plastic taste, even after only 2 hours. Definitely defective (as morebeer.com stated). There's no way anyone would find this acceptable.

(2) Sample of: Arrowhose.com 3/16" type 14 clear vinyl hose used by many places: Still some taint. Less than above. Probably what most people use or are used to. A local draft installer in town here has 700 installs in place with this stuff.

(3) Second sample: Arrowhose.com 3/16" type 14 clear vinyl hose: Still some taint just like above. I wanted to try a second piece just to be sure. Different run. Tastes the same

(4) Sample of Arrowhose.com 1/4" type 58 poly tubing with "arrow guard" barrier: Very subtle plastic taint. Much less than all above. Likely adequate, but the 1/4" won't work for me. I need 3/16" (hard to find).

(5) Sample of Kuritek.com 1/4" Bev-seal Ultra Series 235 poly tubing with barrier: NO plastic taint at all! None! Nada! Fantastic stuff! But again, 1/4" won't work. I need 3/16" which turns out is IMPOSSIBLE to find since Kuritek actually doesn't make it in 3/16" even though their web site says they do! (I called all talked directly to their engineers) <sigh>

So while (5) is best, it can't be bought in 3/16". So I ordered 50' of item (4) instead. Got it today. It's the wrong stuff! It's not arrowhose "type 58", it's arrowhose "type 5C" grey poly tubing from 2001 without any barrier at all. The guy grabbed the wrong thing off the shelf. I'll try it anyway.... while they re-ship the other stuff.

I tell ya, this is not obvious.

I *also* have some Simgo.com generic 3/16" vinyl hose to test since the sent me the wrong stuff too! I had asked for Kuritek Bevlex Series 200 Clear PVC tubing (no barrier but I thought I'd try it since the Kuritek guy I talked to uses it in his own home bar). So they'll be sending me that as well. More tests...!

All together I will have tested 9+ different types. Sheesh. In the end, it's just easier to pour off the first 2 ounces I think. I've gone waaaay too far with this and have become waaaay too much of a hose/tubing vinyl/poly expert.

Kal

 

[BFauska]

Quote from somewhere back in this thread..."We're not interested in moving."

NO SH*# !?!

Great looking setup, bar, home theater, and the new taps. I can't imagine that the tower solution would have looked any better, I think this setup looks fantastic, and you didn't have to drill the counter.

Any update on your hose tasting experiments? That's all interesting information so far, and even if the warmth wasn't the cause of the problem, that cooling system seems great too. If you could get the condensation to freeze it'd look like the "Extra Cold" taps I've seen at some bars.

 

[kal]

Thanks for the compliments!

I'm still waiting for the two suppliers to send me the right hose type... It's getting to the point that I'm not that hopeful anymore that they actually HAVE the two types I wanted to try.

Oh well, the standard 3/16" stuff isn't that bad. You pour off the first oz or two if it's been sitting idle for more than a day or two and the rest is good. The defective stuff I had before was so bad that I'd always have to pull of the first few oz even if it had only been an hour since the last pour. Keeping it all cool helps too.

If/when I finally do get the 3/16" barrier poly hose and the Kuritek Bevlex series 200, I'll post back.

Kal

 

[kal]

Update:

Ok, none of the 3/16" vinyl stuff I was sent was perfect. It all gave a plastic taint taste to my beer. So all of the vinyl types I tried previously (see post above) added a plastic taint, and now I add these to the list of no-go's as well:

- Simgo.com generic 3/16" vinyl
- Kuritek Bevlex series 200 vinyl

I never got the 3/16" PVC barrier hose from Arrow. They just don't make it seems. Probably for the best as connecting it up to 1/4" disconnects and shank barbs would have required extra work and reducers.

So the only stuff that works really well is the Kuritek.com 1/4" Bev-seal Ultra Series 235 poly tubing with barrier that I mentioned I had tried a sample of a few months ago.

So this is the stuff that I've been using for about 2 months now. It's fantastic. Beer left in 12' of this line for 2 weeks has zero taint. With the beer line chilled it's at 40F too.

I skipped using it originally as my problem initially was the large 1/4" diameter which would cause the beer to come pouring out way too fast as I had 8-10 foot lines at 10-15 PSI (depending on the style). This was per the style guidelines.

The good news for me is that I've come to the realization that I like my draft beer served like in the pubs: A bit less carb'ed than bottled beer. So now I keep my English Ales at around 5-6PSI (instead of around 10) and pump through about 8' of hose, and my lagers and wheat beers at around 9-10PSI (instead of 12-15) and push through 12-15' of hose. This works great for me with 1/4" poly line.

Problem finally solved.

I bought the Kuritek.com 1/4" Bev-seal Ultra Series 235 poly tubing with barrier from Simgo.com (in Mississauga Ontario) so only 4 hours from me. Best part was the price. Only 26 cents/foot (correction: 21 cents/foot CDN). Cheaper than most places will sell vinyl line for.

Kal

P.S. A final word of warning when using poly (PVC) line. The stuff's a lot stiffer than vinyl so it's harder to work with and leaks are easy to create. You need to make sure that the barbed ends you work with are good and sharp so that you can get a good fit and USE HOSE CLAMPS!

 

[discgolfin]

Thats very interesting about the plastic taste. Im working on a 4 tap setup keezer right now and ordered 3/16 tubing. Im curious how many others have noticable off flavors in the beer tubing. I don't see myself drinking from my taps every day so some of them might go several days or weeks in the plastic line before another pull. I will have to see how it goes. Also if I'm out of town for vacation of work then they just sit as well..so I'll be interested in if I notice any off plastic flavors or not..that wouold suck

Jay

 

[kal]

My research led me to believe that most people always pour out the first 2-3 oz before drinking from a tap. I just didn't want to do that myself so I went a little overboard with the research and solution.

Kal

 

[z987k]

Awesome bar, great setup, great read! I love threads like this that give me ideas for the future.

I used the 3/16" vinyl beer hose from AHS, and I've yet to notice a "plastic" taste. Even after sitting for a whole month once. Don't have any experience with any other hose so I can't compare.

 

[devaspawn]

I know you went through more hell than you may feel is worth it but I appreciate it very much. I have bookmarked this thread for when I build my bar next summer (I hope), so thank you very much!!!

 

[conpewter]

This is a really interesting thread. I did not know that food grade stuff would give you off flavors. I plan to eventually have 3-5 taps on my fridge and I don't really have room for that much 1/4 hose. Is there any way to use a 5' of 1/4" hose and put some sort of restrictor on it?

 

[conpewter]

If I were to buy a 500' roll of Bev-Seal .190 ID (~3/16) tubing would anyone else want a part of it?

I've been looking all day for a source for this since I want the best possible tasting beer out of my kegorator without throwing any away. I sometimes only pour a half glass of this or that and I don't want to waste what is in the lines.

From the website:

"
Unsurpassed oxygen and flavor protection combined with flushability in a co extruded tube.

* Flushable Glas-Flex&#8482; liner - allows changeovers from even the most pungent flavors with simple flushing procedures.
* NSF-Certified products - certified under standard NSF-51 for food equipment and NSF-61 for drinking water systems.
* Dual-Barrier construction - flushable Glas-Flex&#8482; inner liner surrounded by a seamless extruded barrier layer in a coextruded polyolefin tube. "

 

[kal]

This is a really interesting thread. I did not know that food grade stuff would give you off flavors. I plan to eventually have 3-5 taps on my fridge and I don't really have room for that much 1/4 hose. Is there any way to use a 5' of 1/4" hose and put some sort of restrictor on it?

You could put a 3/16" vinyl choker line on it right before the tap. Try a foot or so and see if it helps. In bar installs they will often go 100 feet with 5/16" poly line and then use 6-8 feet of 3/16" vinyl choker line right at the end to slow it down. At least this is what the beer installer guys I talked to said. (I'm assuming they know what they're talking about as they've done 700+ installs around town it seems).

Kal

 

[kal]

If I were to buy a 500' roll of Bev-Seal .190 ID (~3/16) tubing would anyone else want a part of it

You can't. I already tried this route. It simply doesn't exist. I talked to the engineers at the Kuritek/Kuriyama company (they're in Ontario like me) and even though they have .190 BEV-SEAL poly tubing listed on their website, they don't actually make it and have never made it.

The stuff you're wonding about is the 0.190" line here: http://kuriyama.thomasnet.com/item/...eries-235-tubing/pn-7130?&seo=110&plpver=1001

The company's located at:
Kuri Tec Corporation &#8226; Phone: 1-519-753-6717 &#8226; Fax: 1-519-753-7737 &#8226; 140 Roy Blvd., Brantford, ON, N3R 7K2

Give them a call yourself if you like - even though they don't sell to consumers they were very helpful when I called them looking for the absolute best barrier type hose for beer dispensing. This Bev-Seal stuff is what they recommended over everything else. It's cheap too which is nice ($0.21/foot).

1/4" poly is also easier to hook up to disconnects and shank nipples. Poly doesn't have the same stretch as 3/16" vinyl, but you can make 3/16" poly fit over a 1/4" barb if you hold it in boiling water first for 30 seconds and then push it on carefully.

FYI: I mis-quoted the price of the 1/4" poly bev-seal stuff in an earlier post. It's only $0.21/foot (CDN) from simgo.com. (CDN and US dollar are pretty much on par right now). So it's pretty damned cheap from them. Most smaller brew places or home brew speciality online stores will charge you twice as much for the cheap vinyl stuff!

Kal

 

[Rockweezy]

Seeing as you have done so much research, Kai do you think there is any affect using a beer line tube while racking to you keg through the tubing? I know it is short, but you seem to be an expert.

 

[kal]

Seeing as you have done so much research, Kai do you think there is any affect using a beer line tube while racking to you keg through the tubing? I know it is short, but you seem to be an expert.

I wouldn't worry about it. Contact time is so short. I use reuglar beer line tubing for racking myself.

Kal

 

[Hotspur]

Kal, since you did a lot of the research on this, have you read anything about US Plastics Tygon Tubing? I was poking around their site after being linked there for Vittles Vaults, and it looks like they offer Beverage and Food, Milk & Dairy in 3/16" ID.

 

[kal]

Kal, since you did a lot of the research on this, have you read anything about US Plastics Tygon Tubing? I was poking around their site after being linked there for Vittles Vaults, and it looks like they offer Beverage and Food, Milk & Dairy in 3/16" ID.

I haven't. They seem to have a lot of interesting choices. The way I approached my research was to work backwards: Look at what bars use that serve different products over the same lines, and then called some manufacturers to see what they'd recommend to avoid taint. They all said to use 'barrier' tubing, which is what I ended up purchasing.

Kal

 

[Hotspur]

Hmmm, further research turned up a Canadian Conservation article that the Tygon B-44-3 is still vinyl tubing. From that article it sounds like Tygon SE-200 is FEP lined, much the same as Bev Seal. Looks like USPlastics has it "on order" in 3/16" ID.

 

[conpewter]

Hmmm, further research turned up a Canadian Conservation article that the Tygon B-44-3 is still vinyl tubing. From that article it sounds like Tygon SE-200 is FEP lined, much the same as Bev Seal. Looks like USPlastics has it "on order" in 3/16" ID.

Wow that's over $100 for 50 feet. I got 80 ft of 1/4" ID Bev-Seal tubing for $36 from Better Bottle. I know it is meant for the application, PET lined, can deal with the pressure. For a balanced system I'll just use the little epoxy mixers to reduce pressure in the lines. They are HDPE plastic, just like our fermenting buckets so I don't have any issues with beer contact.

 

[JoeHo]

Reviving this topic, Im about to use 1/4 inch poly as suggested to get little to no plastic taste in my lines. The problem is, i only have about a 6 foot run to make so 6 feet of 1/4 would bw way to much pressure. My solution to this is to cut a 15 foot line and just coil up 9 feet of it in the kegerator before exiting for the 6 foot run. I havent seen this proposed though, so im not sure if its a bad idea. Thoughts?

 

[kal]

It's perfectly fine.

Kal

 

[willpower101]

Can anyone give insight on how Kal wrapped the copper tubing so tight without kinking it? I got soft 1/4" copper from lowes and it's just too difficult to bend without kinking!

Any insight on how to do this would be awesome!

 

[kal]

I didn't think much of it at the time... the tubing was soft (from home depot) and was easily bent without kinking.

That said, my stainless tubing in my HLT I also didn't find hard people people are having a real tough time doing that one as well!

Kal

 

[willpower101]

Cool, thanks for the quick reply, I bought plenty of extra because I'm doing the exact same thing. I'll just try to practice a little more

 

[kal]

The other option is shank chillers: They clamp on to the shank and you pass a bigger diameter copper tubing throug it to chill. Better to have larger diameter copper than smaller to get good flow.

I know that http://www.cdnbev.com/ had them but that was a long time ago.

The other option is to get a tower or something with integrated glycol lines. That's what I did with my bar setup now.

Good luck!

Kal

 

[willpower101]

I managed to wrap it. A few kinks but it's not terrible thanks for the input! (it's reversed for fitment, not much room to work in the closet.)

http://instagram.com/p/a_zEtFGr7d/

 

[spaceyaquarius]

In my experience, "Midwest Brewing" has a plastic taste, while the beer lines (3/16" inner diameter with a very thick wall) gave no plastic taste at all.

The Tygon B44-4X food grade vinyl lines (3/16" inner diameter) I bought had such a thin wall the barbs were nearly rupturing the plastic even before the gas was turned on. I sent it back.

 

[DHdriver]

Kal,
Sorry to bring up old topics but... just wondering what you ended up with for length and rise in your beer lines and how was the pressure/pour with the 3/16" lines. I'm looking at doing a similar length and rise as you originally mentioned and I'm hoping to do it just once.

Thanks

 

[kal]

I use 1/4" lines now. For complete details on the serving setup, see the second post in my basement build:

http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/basement

If you read forward (quite) a bit in that thread, I also took a punch of pictures while I installed the tap/tower setup too.

Kal