Fly vs Batch and Benefits of false bottoms?

[Bobby_M]

Ok, so I've been reading and reading before I build my AG setup. I know this is a long post but I'd appreciate feedback as I'm at a crossroads ;-)

Please confirm or deny: Batch sparging is faster at the cost of lower efficiency.

I suppose the theory behind it is that once the grains release enough sugar, the sugary wort both inside and outside the husk is now equal so it will not release anymore in this particular sparge (thinking of equilibrium in osmosis but maybe it's not that complicated). So, with fly sparging, I assume, the grains continuously have access to unsaturated water to release sugar into as it trickles through the grain bed.


If I'm right about the main difference, everything else being equal, what are the real world efficiency differences between the two and how much $$$ are we talking about on a simple 1.050 5 gallon batch?

One more question.. Is there any benefit to using a true false bottom when batch sparging? I try to visualize the flow of wort through the grain bed during the drain of a batch sparge and I can't imagine any real difference between a SS braid, pipe manifold, or true false bottom. My real dilemma is that I don't want to build a MLT twice if I decide I want higher efficiency but it really sounds like most here settled on batch and never looked back.

 

[david_42]

Batch sparging is faster at the cost of lower efficiency.

Yes, no. I get better efficiency doing batch sparges than I ever did fly sparging.

 

[clayof2day]

I have never fly sparged, but I hover between 75-80% extraction efficiency with my SS braid and batch sparge. Its easy and convenient.

 

[Evan!]

I've only used a false bottom'ed MLT. I got good efficiency on my first go-round (72%). I've heard that channeling is a problem if you're using SS braids, etc.

 

[the_bird]

I've only used a false bottom'ed MLT. I got good efficiency on my first go-round (72%). I've heard that channeling is a problem if you're using SS braids, etc.

Well, channeling's only an issue if you go the fly-sparge route.

Batch sparging is easy, easy, easy, and the stainless steel braid works wonderfully. Never thought about getting stuck. My efficiency hasn't been all that hot (around 70%), but I attribute most of that to not sparging with enough water on some decent-sized beers.

 

[Bobby_M]

Ok, so it looks mixed so far. David has better efficiency with batch but I'd like to hear more experiences. I suppose it is possible that other variables in your processes caused low efficiency in your fly sparge efforts right? IOW, did you use a sparge arm, false bottom, and slow your runnings down enough?

I would love to find that batch is THE way to go because everything about it seems benefitial, ie speed and cost of equipment (perhaps except the efficiency question). If I understand correctly, even grain bed depth is of really no concern other than providing a decent filter for runoff. In that case, one could use just about any sized cooler and do 5 or 10 gallon batches as long as you can keep temps under control over the mash period.

 

[the_bird]

Here's what I would do, since ultimately, it's a personal decision.

Build a mash tun with a ten-gallon, round cooler. Use that to batch sparge and see how you like it. If you don't like batch sparging, you'll still use that cooler for fly sparging. I'd go with the round cooler instead of rectangular, since the latter isn't as good for fly sparging if you end up going that route.

Use a stainless steel braid, it only costs $7 to put together. If you end up fly sparging, you'll probably want to put together a manifold - but you'll only be out $7 for the braid.

This way, you get your feet wet with mashing and don't have to stress about sparging, as batch sparging could not be easier. Add water, stir, wait, vorlouf, and drain. Add more water, stir, wait, vorlouf, and drain. If you don't like it, or don't like the efficiency, you can then "graduate" to fly sparging without having "wasted" any gear other than a $7 braid.

If you decide you like batch sparging, you spent a little bit extra to get a round cooler instead of rectangular, no big deal.

Make sense? It's a very personal decision, there is no "right" or "wrong" answer.

 

[brewman !]

I was just about to ask the same question, batch versus fly, but for lager beers specifically. Does batch sparging release more tanins ? I'm old school. When I started there was no batch sparging, only fly sparging.

 

[KopyKat]

Batch sparging is easy, easy, easy, and the stainless steel braid works wonderfully. Never thought about getting stuck.

Ditto. I have done both batch and fly sparging. I started out as a fly sparger and then tried batch sparging. Batch sparging gets my vote hands down. Easier, SS braid is great. And faster. I will never go back to fly sparging. Efficiency is almost as good and the extra cost in grain is pennies.

I made mine with SS Braid in a 36 Qt Coleman Extreme.

 

[the_bird]

With batch sparging, you don't need to worry about Ph and tannins and all of that stuff. You aren't continually diluting the wort. I'm trying to find the Dennycon link that discusses batch sparging in detail, but for some reason it's not working. Suffice it to say that with batch sparging, PH is of minimal concern.

 

[the_bird]

I made mine with SS Braid in a 36 Qt Coleman Extreme.

That's an awesome cooler for batch sparging. I only recommended the round as it would not be the ideal cooler for fly sparging, if he chose later on to go that route. But damn, preheat the cooler with a bit of boiling water, and it did not lose a single degree of temperature in a 60+ minute mash, in 40 degree ambient temperature. Plus, the channeled slot for the drain works great. Just get a bulkhead from Northern Brewer and go...

 

[the_bird]

I'm pretty sure this is the link I'm looking for, but it's not working for me right now.

http://hbd.org/cascade/dennybrew/

Hopefully, it works for you, and it's what I'm thinking it is.

 

[zoebisch01]

*chime*

You can do up to a 13-14 lb grain bill in a 5 gallon cooler with fly. I did a 12lb bill and had room to spare. So I guess the moral of my story is I really don't have room for batch so I fly, at least I don't think I do. The cooler was small and inexpensive and it works. If I had to do it over, I suppose I'd buy a larger cooler and try batch sparging....but I am getting high efficiencies so I don't plan on changing. (Not that efficiency is everything..but it is one of the factors that you design and 'perfect' your recipes around).

 

[Bobby_M]

Thanks guys. I know I'm way overthinking this but I guess it's better than regretting later.

I think I'm sold on batch for now. I think I'm going to go with a rectangular cooler for now as well because I could always sell it to someone. I've read the Denny site many times and will probably just copy his design.

 

[Evan!]

Overthinking the details is what we homebrewers do best. Overthinking the details is how we continually improve our beer. Overthinking the details is how we get the setup we want without wasting money on superfluous contraptions. So, don't knock overthinking.

Yeah, batch is certainly easier and less time-consuming from what I understand (I haven't done fly, but I know what it is)...which gets my vote. Plus you don't have to construct some kind of contraption to batch sparge, you just pour in hot water.

I guess you can go either way on the false-bottom thing. Personally, I was planning on constructing an MLT using the SS braid idea, but my friend brought over that 50L SS MLT with a pro false bottom and spigot before I had the chance to...so that's why I am using the false bottom. Otherwise...I'd probably be using the braid setup. Much cheaper, AFAICT.

 

[Desert_Sky]

I never liked my SS braid setup. It would always move around/float/piss me off. I went with a SS false bottom, and havent looked back. I have one in both my 5 and 10 gallon mashtuns. I batch sparge and am right around 73-75%

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

I would love to find that batch is THE way to go...

There's no answer to that question, so you're pulling your hair out over nothing. You can always try both setups and see which you like best.

In terms of efficiency, my opinion is that it really is dependent on the setup. I'm pretty sure that batch sparging is generally more efficient on a steel braid setup (due to channeling) while fly sparging is generally more efficient with one of those perforated false bottoms (no channeling). The closer you get to covering the bottom of your mashtun with outlets for the mash the better fly sparging is going to look (this is just my theorizing and not based on empirical data).

At the end of the day my time is worth enough to me to go with batch sparging regardless of any advantages/disadvantages.

 

[Bobby_M]

I'm thinking about making my own straining tube out of some more rigid stainless mesh from Mcmaster. A 12x12" sheet is under 10 bucks anyway.

 

[cweston]

I have never fly sparged but I honestly am not sure why a person would anymore, if you don't already have a setup for it.

Batch sparging is easier and faster and less fussy--maybe someone can chime in with the advantages of fly sparging, but I just don't really see any. Even if you get slightly better efficiency (which is highly debatable), as other have pointed out, a few extra ounces of grain costs practically nothing.

 

[rdwj]

I never liked my SS braid setup. It would always move around/float/piss me off. I went with a SS false bottom, and havent looked back. I have one in both my 5 and 10 gallon mashtuns. I batch sparge and am right around 73-75%

Do you ever have a problem with stuck sparges? According to Palmer, that's the biggest drawback to the false bottom and one reason I'm leaning toward a copper manifold.

I'm another one that's gearing up for AG and have changed my mind about a dozen times on how I want to go.

 

[Bobby_M]

Just curious, has anyone ever tested BATCH sparge efficiency differences between drain methods (braid vs manifold vs perforated false bottom)? I know the theory on why it shouldn't matter, but theories are meant to be tested.

 

[Orfy]

I'd probably not of got into AG or not so readily if it wasn't for reading about batch sparging. It knocks over an hour off a brew day and I'm getting around 80% eff on extraction.

 

[Desert_Sky]

Do you ever have a problem with stuck sparges? According to Palmer, that's the biggest drawback to the false bottom and one reason I'm leaning toward a copper manifold.

I'm another one that's gearing up for AG and have changed my mind about a dozen times on how I want to go.

Ive had one stuck sparge. It was from doing my Pumpkin Spice Ale. I had a whole can of pumpkin in the mash, so........

 

[the_bird]

I never liked my SS braid setup. It would always move around/float/piss me off. I went with a SS false bottom, and havent looked back. I have one in both my 5 and 10 gallon mashtuns. I batch sparge and am right around 73-75%

Solution to the floating problem (which is a bitch):

Instead of just folding over the end of the braid, I put a small nipple, probably three-quarters of an inch long, maybe a full inch, in the end. I let it extend out maybe a quarter to a half inch beyond the end of the hose. I then closed it off by screwing on an endcap. The whole thing is held in place with a stainless steel clamp, which clamps the braid down on the nipple.

Just enough weight where it stays put at the bottom of the mash tun.

 

[67coupe390]

Solution to the floating problem (which is a bitch):

Instead of just folding over the end of the braid, I put a small nipple, probably three-quarters of an inch long, maybe a full inch, in the end. I let it extend out maybe a quarter to a half inch beyond the end of the hose. I then closed it off by screwing on an endcap. The whole thing is held in place with a stainless steel clamp, which clamps the braid down on the nipple.

Just enough weight where it stays put at the bottom of the mash tun.

That is a great idea!!! I will do that to mine today.
I'm going to vote "BATCH SPARGE" It saves time and money which both I have little of. I just did my first all grain this way and it was a blast!!! Easy to clean up too which saves more time. I can't knock fly sparge because I have never done it but it seems to me from reading on the forum that it is older technology and batch sparging is the way to do it now. Like a few people have said if you don't like it the cooler will work for a mash tun on a fly sparge set up. Win Win I say!!!

Heres how I set mine up. http://yellowdogbrewery.com/BAMT.aspx http://hbd.org/cascade/dennybrew/

Coleman exterme 70qt.(good for big and small batches and didn"t loose any heat) $39.99 K- fart
Plumbing for MLT $14.59 Home depot

For a pot http://cgi.ebay.com/BREW-POT-9-GALL...yZ38172QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem( not the highest quality but I like it!!)
And the rest I had from extract brewing!!!
You will need a wort chiller tooo!!!

 

[Brew-boy]

I built a CPVC manifold and have great luck with it. Easy to come apart and to clean. I guess I am the odd duck as I fly sparge. I built a cooler sprinkler system that will gently rain on the grain bed with my cooler lid closed. I usually get 75-80% Eff.

 

[rdwj]

Coleman exterme 70qt.(good for big and small batches and didn"t loose any heat) $39.99

How deep is your grain bed for a typical 5 gal batch? I was looking at the Xtreme series, but thought the 36 might be a little small if I ever wanted to do a 10 gal batch and the 52 might be a little big for 5's.

Sounds like the cooler is pretty good quality.

 

[rdwj]

I built a CPVC manifold and have great luck with it. Easy to come apart and to clean. I guess I am the odd duck as I fly sparge. I built a cooler sprinkler system that will gently rain on the grain bed with my cooler lid closed. I usually get 75-80% Eff.

Do you have a rectangular or round cooler on your set-up?

 

[the_bird]

I have the 36 quart, but I don't expect to ever do 10 gallon batches (not until I'm kegging, at least). It's the perfect size for 5 gallon batches, IMHO, and only $30.

Plus, it has four cupholders to hold homebrew while mashing.

 

[Bobby_M]

You will need a wort chiller tooo!!!

Yeah, the cool thing for me is that I've already been doing full boils even on extract to get ramped up for AG so I already have the chiller and 30qt pot.