First wort hopping with RIMS - possible?

[cutitoutdave]

Hi all, long time lurker and first time poster. I've been brewing all grain for a few years and am thinking about building a RIMS setup. No sparge with recirculating mash.

I've had good luck with first wort hopping and wondered if anyone has tried it with a RIMS system. My understanding is that FWH takes advantage of the higher pH of the first mash runnings after steeping the grains, but in a recirculating mash system it would be all mixed and there would be no "first wort."

However, if the idea is that adding hops to the wort early on actually changes the pH of the entire mash, then it might work.

Thoughts?

 

[funnelweb]

Hi all, long time lurker and first time poster. I've been brewing all grain for a few years and am thinking about building a RIMS setup. No sparge with recirculating mash.

I've had good luck with first wort hopping and wondered if anyone has tried it with a RIMS system. My understanding is that FWH takes advantage of the higher pH of the first mash runnings after steeping the grains, but in a recirculating mash system it would be all mixed and there would be no "first wort."

However, if the idea is that adding hops to the wort early on actually changes the pH of the entire mash, then it might work.

Thoughts?

Maybe i'm off track here, but you gotta at some point transfer your wort (mash) to your boil kettle, right? Just drop your FWH into your BK before transferring wort. (sorry if i'm misunderstanding your question - i'm danish )

 

[rwc_617]

2nd funnel web. After you are done RIMSing you will transfer high gravity wort to your BK. Same situation as any other mash technique.

Why no sparge after RIMS? They are not mutually exclusive. I RIMS then fly sparge every batch.

 

[Gameface]

I'm another one not seeing the problem. I fly sparge adn recently switched to an eHERMS system. FWH is working fine just like it did before.

 

[cutitoutdave]

Thanks for the replies! Maybe I'm off with my understanding of this, but I believe that pH of the runnings rises during the lauter (I had it backwards in my original post). So in a traditional steeped grain mash, the initial runnings will be low pH (5.2-5.7ish), and the last runnings may be close to or above 6. In fact I've read that you don't want to let the lauter pH rise about 6 in order to prevent tannin extraction.

I think the theory behind FWH is that hops play differently in the initial low pH runnings then they would if mixed into the wort as a whole (which would presumably have higher pH). In a recirculating mash, there is no first wort because everything is mixed together, so you may not be able to take advantage of the FWH effect. If the hops are dropped into the kettle as you transfer, all the wort has the same pH at that point so I don't think it's technically FWH.

 

[Gameface]

Thanks for the replies! Maybe I'm off with my understanding of this, but I believe that pH of the runnings rises during the lauter (I had it backwards in my original post). So in a traditional steeped grain mash, the initial runnings will be low pH (5.2-5.7ish), and the last runnings may be close to or above 6. In fact I've read that you don't want to let the lauter pH rise about 6 in order to prevent tannin extraction.

I think the theory behind FWH is that hops play differently in the initial low pH runnings then they would if mixed into the wort as a whole (which would presumably have higher pH). In a recirculating mash, there is no first wort because everything is mixed together, so you may not be able to take advantage of the FWH effect. If the hops are dropped into the kettle as you transfer, all the wort has the same pH at that point so I don't think it's technically FWH.

I think you have a misunderstanding of what first runnings (aka, first wort) are. Regardless of whether or not you batch sparge or fly sparge (both of which are possible with RIMS) you'll get first runnings. It is literally the first wort you put in the boil kettle. Recirculation doesn't change this at all. Even if you are not recirculating DURING the mash, you want everything in your mash to be as uniform as possible. The wort at the top of your mash tun shouldn't be all that different than the mash at the bottom of your mash tun. If there was a difference it'd most likely be in temperature, not in gravity or pH.

The main difference in a recirculating system, HERMS or RIMS, is that you are recirculating throughout the entire mash instead of just prior to sparging, which is called vorlauf and should be done in a non HERMS or RIMS system and which takes wort from the bottom of the tun and adds it back to the top of the tun.

That recirculation in HERMS or RIMS is all about temperature control. Maintaining a precise temp and keeping the temp as close to the same throughout the mash tun (top to bottom) as possible. It has the added benefit of essentially being a super vorlauf, since most people only vorlauf a few liters or so until they get clear wort. In a HERMS or RIMS you'll have extremely clear wort transferring to your BK, which has debatable benefits, but one benefit is that you shouldn't have grain bits in any significant quantity because they have been filtered out in the grain bed already.

So either way, the first wort is first wort. There isn't a significant difference between HERMS and RIMS first wort and any other method.

Now, if you were doing no sparge BIAB or something, that's something else, but short of a no sparge method (which would still have uniformity of pH in the mash tun) not much is different with a HERMS or RIMS process.

Make sense?

 

[cutitoutdave]

I think you have a misunderstanding of what first runnings (aka, first wort) are. Regardless of whether or not you batch sparge or fly sparge (both of which are possible with RIMS) you'll get first runnings. It is literally the first wort you put in the boil kettle. Recirculation doesn't change this at all. Even if you are not recirculating DURING the mash, you want everything in your mash to be as uniform as possible. The wort at the top of your mash tun shouldn't be all that different than the mash at the bottom of your mash tun. If there was a difference it'd most likely be in temperature, not in gravity or pH.

Thanks again for the reply... I'm on board with everything you said but I think this is the sticking point. I'm not sure about mash tun pH/temp/gravity gradients, but there is definitely a difference in the stuff that comes out in the lauter when you first crack the valve versus the last stuff to come out, right? The first runnings are higher gravity and lower pH. The lauter is not uniform in a traditional mash. Just think about what the vorlauf looks like.

Everything I've read implies that this first wort - again, higher gravity, lower pH - is responsible for the unique flavor of FWH.

The question is whether the lauter is more uniform when it is eventually drained after a recirculating mash, and if it is, then will the FWH effect still occur?

 

[funnelweb]

Thanks again for the reply... I'm on board with everything you said but I think this is the sticking point. I'm not sure about mash tun pH/temp/gravity gradients, but there is definitely a difference in the stuff that comes out in the lauter when you first crack the valve versus the last stuff to come out, right? The first runnings are higher gravity and lower pH. The lauter is not uniform in a traditional mash. Just think about what the vorlauf looks like.

Everything I've read implies that this first wort - again, higher gravity, lower pH - is responsible for the unique flavor of FWH.

The question is whether the lauter is more uniform when it is eventually drained after a recirculating mash, and if it is, then will the FWH effect still occur?

Well, I've done both. I've tried FWH with HERMS (recirc.) and FWH with a simple tun made out of a cooler. I've measured pH and added mineral salts ie. gypsum, Epsom and Calcium Chloride in all kind of ways. There is no difference whatsoever. You wouldn't be able to tell IMHO

 

[Gameface]

Thanks again for the reply... I'm on board with everything you said but I think this is the sticking point. I'm not sure about mash tun pH/temp/gravity gradients, but there is definitely a difference in the stuff that comes out in the lauter when you first crack the valve versus the last stuff to come out, right? The first runnings are higher gravity and lower pH. The lauter is not uniform in a traditional mash. Just think about what the vorlauf looks like.

Everything I've read implies that this first wort - again, higher gravity, lower pH - is responsible for the unique flavor of FWH.

The question is whether the lauter is more uniform when it is eventually drained after a recirculating mash, and if it is, then will the FWH effect still occur?

So when you FWH you add like a couple quarts to the BK and then stop for 30min or so? All that before vorlaufing?

 

[cutitoutdave]

Well, I've done both. I've tried FWH with HERMS (recirc.) and FWH with a simple tun made out of a cooler. I've measured pH and added mineral salts ie. gypsum, Epsom and Calcium Chloride in all kind of ways. There is no difference whatsoever. You wouldn't be able to tell IMHO

Great, that's what I figured. I think at the end of the day I'm probably just splitting hairs. RIMS system it is!

 

[cutitoutdave]

So when you FWH you add like a couple quarts to the BK and then stop for 30min or so? All that before vorlaufing?

No, I vorlauf maybe a quart then start the lauter with the hops already in the BK. I try to do less than a quart a minute so the lauter takes 30-45 min. I have no idea if it makes any difference that the first wort hitting the hops is lower in pH, especially since it's all mixed together after 30 min or so.

Funny - the method you described would be interesting to try. Let the hops marinate in the first wort for a while then add the whole thing back to the mash as a vorlauf. It would prolong your mash time significantly but might just be the next great thing in hopping.

 

[anchornm]

I may have totally missed the point (or maybe everyone else has), but as I see it, First Wort Hopping isn't a function of pH, but a function of temperature.
The hops acids that are rendered are "low temperature" isomers. Those isomers take the place of the finishing / aroma hops by being rendered early. As the temperature becomes a boil, the hops take on the function of bittering.

 

[Gameface]

I may have totally missed the point (or maybe everyone else has), but as I see it, First Wort Hopping isn't a function of pH, but a function of temperature.
The hops acids that are rendered are "low temperature" isomers. Those isomers take the place of the finishing / aroma hops by being rendered early. As the temperature becomes a boil, the hops take on the function of bittering.

That's one of the many theories regarding FWHs. But someone did a blind taste test and there wasn't much difference between using FWHs or 60min hops. As far as I can tell the FWH addition acts mostly like a 60min addition. I wouldn't reduce my finishing hops on account of using FWH.