First sour, need advice

[Bluelinebrewer]

Hello all. As the title suggests, this will be my first attempt at a sour. I'm trying to somewhat replicate Russian River's Temptation. I found this clone recipe on BYO:

Russian River Brewing Co. Temptation clone

(5 gallons/19 L, all-grain) OG =1.064 FG = 1.012 (going into the barrel), IBU = 28 SRM = 4 ABV = 6.7%

Ingredients:
12 lb. 6 oz. (5.6 kg) 2-row pale or Pils malt
10 oz. (0.28 kg) wheat malt
3.8 AAU Styrian Golding hops (90 min) (0.76 oz./22 g of 5% alpha acids)
4.5 AAU Sterling hops (30 min) (0.56 oz./16 g of 8% alpha acids)
4.5 AAU Sterling hops (0 min) (0.56 oz./16 g of 8% alpha acids)
Wyeast 1214 (Belgian Ale) or White Labs WLP550 (Belgian Ale) yeast
Wyeast 5112 (Brettanomyces bruxellensis) or White Labs WLP650 (Brettanomyces bruxellensis) yeast
Wyeast 5335 (Lactobacillus) or White Labs WLP677 (Lactobacillus) bacteria Wyeast 5733 (Pediococcus) bacteria
1 cup corn sugar (for priming)
Step by Step:

Mash at 154 °F (68 °C). Boil for 90 minutes. Ferment at ale temperatures. Fine beer post fermentation. Add a 1 pint Brettanomyces bruxellensis starter. At Russian River, we get the Lacto and Pedio from the air or blending post barrel aging. For homebrewing purposes, add a 0.5 pint (240 mL) Lactobacillus starter and a 0.5 pint (240 mL) Pediococcus starter. You can also try to culture them from a bottle of Temptation.

Age for 12–15 months. Bottle condition or force carbonate. Remember that if you are bottle conditioning, you'll need to add more sugar than normal, probably 1 cup of sugar per 5 gallons (19 L). This is because the beer has lost all of its CO2 during the barrel aging. It is as still as wine when it comes out of the barrel.

As I've never used Brett, Pedio, or Lacto before, is there anything I need to be aware of? The article mentions doing a starter for the bugs, anything I need to do with that, out of the usual process for a yeast starter? I know dregs from RR would be optimal, but, I don't have a lot of access to that, only had it once and I loved it. So are dregs from other sours acceptable? I also understand, from the article, that I need to let the fermenting yeast do it's thing before pitching the bugs.. yes? Thanks for any tips/advice you guys can give me!

 

[badlee]

I would do a few things differently.
1) no starter for bugs. Pitch sacc and a blend of bugs and brett(wlp and wyeast have them) at the same time.
2) any sour dregs will do. If you like the beer they came from,pitch away.

 

[Bluelinebrewer]

I would do a few things differently.
1) no starter for bugs. Pitch sacc and a blend of bugs and brett(wlp and wyeast have them) at the same time.
2) any sour dregs will do. If you like the beer they came from,pitch away.

Thanks for the tips! I've already purchased the Brett, Pedio, and Lacto.. would I be ok to just pitch everything, including the sacc, on the day I brew?

 

[Calder]

I would have recommended just buying a sour mix and pitching that with no starter.

Since you have everything, my suggestion would be to pitch the lacto and pedio (no starter and no aeration), and wait 2 to 3 days, and then pitch both the brett and sacc (no starter, but you need to aerate).

- This allows the bugs to start building their colonies before any alcohol is present.

- The brett is slower than the sacc, which you want. This 'stresses' the brett bringing out its flavors.

- This makes the sacc slow, to create more esters for the brett to work on, and again giving more time for bugs

 

[Bluelinebrewer]

Thanks for the info! As with everything else in this hobby, there's a dozen ways, at least, to go about doing something. Just want to do my research before I brew this one!

Edit: I know sometimes Brett can cause that "horse blanket" taste, and I'm trying to avoid a lot of that. I just want a good, sour, blonde.

 

[TNGabe]

Thanks for the info! As with everything else in this hobby, there's a dozen ways, at least, to go about doing something. Just want to do my research before I brew this one!

Edit: I know sometimes Brett can cause that "horse blanket" taste, and I'm trying to avoid a lot of that. I just want a good, sour, blonde.

If you bought White Labs stuff, you will want to make starters because of the insanely small amount of cells you get from WL. You don't need to oxygenate the bacteria, but some people like to use a stirplate to keep the bacteria in suspension for more growth. If you have the WL brett, they actually recommend a 100ml starter as a first step. There is a lot of info on brett starters on here and at least 10% isn't crap, so good luck with that. :cross:

If you bought Wyeast, you should be okay to pitch directly, but I would make starters just to be able to have some of the bacteria and brett left for future projects. You're probably in for at least $50 in yeast on this one so far, so why not get a few brews out of it?

Adding dregs is great, but if you want something similar to Temptation, you should really try and track down a RR bottle, preferably Temptation or Beatification. Adding dregs from other breweries might be fine, but RR beers tend to be more balanced than other AWAs. If you go adding Crooked Stave or Jolly Pumpkin instead, you might still have a good beer, but it probably won't be exactly what you're looking for.

For what you're looking for, I think you'll be happiest by going with your original plan following the BYO recipe. That and patience should give you a well balanced beer. Only addition you might want to consider would be some boiled oak cubes that are then soaked in good chardonnay to mimic the barrels RR uses.

 

[MileHighBrewer]

That should be wyeast 3522 or wlp550, same origin and a great choice for sour, i use it almost exclusively for funky and sour beers

 

[Bluelinebrewer]

If you bought White Labs stuff, you will want to make starters because of the insanely small amount of cells you get from WL. You don't need to oxygenate the bacteria, but some people like to use a stirplate to keep the bacteria in suspension for more growth. If you have the WL brett, they actually recommend a 100ml starter as a first step. There is a lot of info on brett starters on here and at least 10% isn't crap, so good luck with that. :cross:

If you bought Wyeast, you should be okay to pitch directly, but I would make starters just to be able to have some of the bacteria and brett left for future projects. You're probably in for at least $50 in yeast on this one so far, so why not get a few brews out of it?

Adding dregs is great, but if you want something similar to Temptation, you should really try and track down a RR bottle, preferably Temptation or Beatification. Adding dregs from other breweries might be fine, but RR beers tend to be more balanced than other AWAs. If you go adding Crooked Stave or Jolly Pumpkin instead, you might still have a good beer, but it probably won't be exactly what you're looking for.

For what you're looking for, I think you'll be happiest by going with your original plan following the BYO recipe. That and patience should give you a well balanced beer. Only addition you might want to consider would be some boiled oak cubes that are then soaked in good chardonnay to mimic the barrels RR uses.

Thanks! I've got all Wyeast stuff. I do plan on doing the oak cubes soaked in chardonnay, that was in the article as well, I just didn't paste that part. Now, the patience.. that's gonna be the hard part!! I've never been good with that! lol

 

[microbusbrewery]

+1 everything Tngabe said.

 

[Bluelinebrewer]

Thanks for all the tips guys! I'll update the thread in a year or so, if I remember, and let everyone know how it turns out! I love sours, but, I've just never had the patience to brew one!

 

[ukeedogs]

Sounds good!

 

[Bluelinebrewer]

Hey guys, need some more advice. I went ahead and brewed this up on Sunday, with the intent of following the recipe. I had planned to wait til it got down to 1.020, (started at 1.058 ) and then racking and adding all my bugs. Took a sample today and it's already at 1.012! Am I ok to just go ahead and rack, and then throw all the bugs in?

 

[Calder]

Hey guys, need some more advice. I went ahead and brewed this up on Sunday, with the intent of following the recipe. I had planned to wait til it got down to 1.020, (started at 1.058 ) and then racking and adding all my bugs. Took a sample today and it's already at 1.012! Am I ok to just go ahead and rack, and then throw all the bugs in?

You are fine. There are lots of ways to make a sour.

 

[Bluelinebrewer]

Thanks Calder. I went ahead and racked off into a glass carboy yesterday, and added the Brett, Pedio, and Lacto. We'll see what happens! Should I be seeing any activity in the airlock?

 

[Calder]

Thanks Calder. I went ahead and racked off into a glass carboy yesterday, and added the Brett, Pedio, and Lacto. We'll see what happens! Should I be seeing any activity in the airlock?

You will see very little avtivity, but it should maintain positive pressure.

 

[Bluelinebrewer]

Gotcha. Thanks. It looked like the beginning of pellicle this morning. A real light sheen on the top. Or, could just be my imagination. Lol

 

[MileHighBrewer]

Good luck! Now do yourself a favor and forget about this beer for a while, its tempting (ha!) To take samples along the way, but do not touch for AT LEAST 6-8 months. Keep the airlock topped off but, no samples until like August at the earliest. At this point it should be developing its sour and funk. Take a sample, and really taste the beer. Sit down, concentrate and tear apart what you are tasting, and take notes. Come back to it at the 1 year mark and compare that against your notes, it will give you an idea of where it is going and if you need to feed the bugs. If you cheat, and taste before these points, you will likely freak out that the beer is bland, not sour, so on and so forth.

 

[Bluelinebrewer]

Thanks for the tips MileHigh! That's definitely going to be the hard part! But, I'll do my best!! I haven't yet put the oak chips in, I thought I would wait til it gets closer to being finished. Good idea? Bad idea?

 

[Bluelinebrewer]

Well.. Life got busy.. and this beer is still in the carboy! lol. Any tips? Dump it? Roll with it?

 

[crusader1612]

Well.. Life got busy.. and this beer is still in the carboy! lol. Any tips? Dump it? Roll with it?

Your all good. Provided the airlock is still all good, it'll age on and on.
If you want you could probably take a sample now, and see where its at. ( i like to take a big enough sample to taste twice, one at room temp and the other at fridge temps. this means i get a beeter idea of where its at.)

If your not quite sour enough and you want to do something about it, add some fruit (sour cherries, raspberries work well) and let it ride for another 3-6 months) given your at 1.012 it may be less sour than expected but thats ok.

 

[Bluelinebrewer]

Yeah.. The airlock is dry, so, that has me a bit concerned.. but, what's the worst that could happen?! I'll take a sample tonight, and see how it goes!

 

[crusader1612]

Yeah.. The airlock is dry, so, that has me a bit concerned.. but, what's the worst that could happen?! I'll take a sample tonight, and see how it goes!

You might get lucky.
acetic acid has a habit of creeping in when the airlock goes dry - but it would depend on how long its been dry for.

(FYI acetic acid is essentially that vinegar taste)

fingers crossed for you.

 

[Bluelinebrewer]

Well, it's been dry for a while.. I kinda just forgot about it! lol. I'll give it a taste tonight and see how it goes! My next concern, if it does taste ok, is bottling. Will it still carb up ok? I seem to remember reading something about needing to add extra (more than the usual amount) of priming sugar or yeast.. or something.. Hell, I can't remember. That was the last batch of beer I brewed, and I'm starting to get back into it all. Seems sometimes life just gets in the way, and things have to get placed on the back burner!

 

[burninator]

Well, it's been dry for a while.. I kinda just forgot about it! lol. I'll give it a taste tonight and see how it goes! My next concern, if it does taste ok, is bottling. Will it still carb up ok? I seem to remember reading something about needing to add extra (more than the usual amount) of priming sugar or yeast.. or something.. Hell, I can't remember. That was the last batch of beer I brewed, and I'm starting to get back into it all. Seems sometimes life just gets in the way, and things have to get placed on the back burner!

You'll almost certainly need to re-yeast. Get a neutral wine yeast (champagne yeast is popular for this), re-hydrate it, and add it to the bottling bucket.

 

[sweetcell]

You'll almost certainly need to re-yeast. Get a neutral wine yeast (champagne yeast is popular for this), re-hydrate it, and add it to the bottling bucket.

you don't need much, a quarter of a packet is plenty.

 

[Keithww]

I once let a carboy of RIS sit for 6 months dry, after tending it for 18 months. Figured what the heck, added sugar, yeast and bottled. 2 years later it was the best beer I ever bottled.

 

[crusader1612]

you don't need much, a quarter of a packet is plenty.

I'd even argue you don't need to re-yeast.
it will eventually carb up. it'll take 2-3 month instead of 2-3 weeks.

 

[jabba11]

I too had one that sat for over a year. I did add some champagne yeast in at bottle (this was a kriek) and it turned out great. Bubbly refreshing sour. Some vinegar but it actually adds a tartness to it that nice. Not a session thing but I enjoy one still today several years later from time to time and always bring one out at tastings casue it freaks people out to think its a beer and not a champagne etc.

 

[sweetcell]

I'd even argue you don't need to re-yeast.
it will eventually carb up. it'll take 2-3 month instead of 2-3 weeks.

indeed the brett, which is still alive in there, will carbonate the beer. i've done it many times and it has never failed. does indeed take longer.

however, bottle conditioning with brett, as of late, has almost always come with the off-flavor known as "mouse taint" or "that Cheerios flavor" - THP. it goes away with time but it's annoying to have to wait through. with a dollar's worth of champagne yeast, i get to drink my beer faster and not have to waste bottles to test if the THP is gone. maybe i'm hyper-sensitive to THP but i've dumped several bottles that showed that taste. i can't stand it. YMMV.