First Saison recipe help

[LoMich]

Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 5.0 Gallons
Boil Size: 6.5 gallons
Efficiency: 65% (brew house)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.051
Final Gravity: 1.010
ABV (standard): 5.4
IBU (tinseth): 28.4
SRM (morey): 5.9

MASH:
6 lb - Belgian - Pilsner 60%
1 lb - Michigan- Wheat 10%
1 lb - American- Munich Dark 20l 10%
1 lb- American- Rye 10%
.5 lb - Rice hulls

FERMENTABLES:
1 lb - Honey - (Flame-Out) 10%

HOPS:
0.25 oz - Citra for 90 min, Type: Fresh, Use: Boil
0.75 oz - Saaz for 90 min, Type: Fresh, Use: Boil
0.25 oz - Saaz Flame out
0.25 oz - Citra Flame out

MASH STEPS:
1) Protein Rest 122 F , Time: 15 min.
2) Infusion, Temp: 150 F, Time: 60 min.

OTHER INGREDIENTS:
1 each Orange & Lemon Zest 5 min Spice Boil
7 G Indian Coriander (crushed) 5 min Spice Boil
5 G Chamomile 5 min Herb Boil

YEAST:
Wyeast - French saison 3711


EDIT TO REFLECT CHANGES!

 

[motorneuron]

(1 & 3) With that much wheat and rye, rice hulls are probably good insurance. You could also consider a brief (say, 15-minute) protein rest at 122-124F to break down some of the glucans. And make sure to keep your sparge temperature at 160-170F. Also, are the wheat and rye malted? I'm assuming they are; if not, the protein rest is more important. Finally, you want to keep your main rest low and long--say, 148-150F for 75-90 minutes--to keep your wort fermentable.

(2) Hops are totally up to you. Noble hops are "traditional" in this "style," but it's such a loose style that you don't need to feel too constrained, even if you are trying to make something more traditional. That said, Citra as a bittering hop seems slightly like a waste to me, and will also provide a lot of IBUs. If you want Citra character, I'd consider using more of it and later on--e.g., 1 oz at 20 mins, which will give flavor.

Additional thoughts: I have no experience with 585, though I've heard it's good. 1.014 is a high finishing gravity for a saison; some of these yeasts can be very attenuative. In any event, you might consider replacing a little of the dark munich with some turbinado or other lightly colored sugar (or additional honey) to push the FG down. But this depends on how 585 actually behaves; if it's like 3711, you won't need sugar, but if it's like 566, it may actually finish at 1.014, so the sugar would make sense. You just don't want this to finish too sweet or chewy.

I would nix the ginger, though that is obviously up to you. I just find its flavor easily obtrusive in light beers. For the first time you're making a saison, I think it might be nice to get more of a sense of the spice and esters that the yeast provides on its own.

 

[LoMich]

First of all thanks for your input on this, some very helpful advice. Yeah the wheat and rye and malted, I think i'll do a 15 min protein rest then just to be on the safe side. Bump the mash time up as well. As far as the citra go's I really do only want the flavor mostly. I know it's high AA thats why I only used it sparingly, but I think I will take your advice on this and use the saaz for main bittering and add the citra as a late addition. Maybe an oz of saaz at 60 and an oz of citra at 20?

The FG has me a little stumped, i'm trying to tweak my recipe to get it down but not much success. I wrote my original plan on paper then I plugged it in to brewers friend. It's showing that if I add sugar(even honey) and lower the munich i'm going to get a 1.015 FG :/ . How would you go about lowering it? I'm still a new brewer so sorry for the dumb questions.

 

[motorneuron]

You could consider just doing all your hops at 20 minutes--some Citra, some Saaz. Unless you're being a total purist, using Saaz as a bittering hop is usually not the best choice--most of its character is lost, and it's very low AA%, so you don't get too much from it. Given your pils malt, you want a 90-minute boil. So I'd just do an ounce each (or whatever to achieve the IBUs you want) at about 20 minutes (or whatever time achieves the IBUs you want).

As for the FG, I don't use brewers friend these days, but a lot of software has a hard time figuring out the effects of different mash profiles and fermentables on FG. It's also a bit of a guess anyway. But you can generally safely assume that if you are pitching adequately, oxygenating properly, not too cold, etc., simple sugars will be almost 100% fermented. So adding honey, corn sugar, candy sugar, turbinado, etc., will add OG but almost no FG. A very general guideline is that ~20% sugar can be appropriate in Belgian styles, so you can use that as a rough estimate. Again, though, a lot of this depends on how 585 behaves, and I have no idea about that personally.

As insurance for a lower FG, you can also mash at 148F. But hey, this will still make a good beer, so don't obsess too much over the difference between 1.012 and 1.014, especially the first time you're doing this style.

 

[TNGabe]

A few thoughts in no particular order.

That is a $hit ton of spices. Maybe more than a $hit ton. Spices in a saison should be so subtle as to be undectable as spice, but rather serving to compliment the yeast and hops character.

1.014 is insanely high for a saison. 1.006 is the max for a saison and I prefer mine to finish under 1.004.

You shouldn't need rice hulls. I do 50/50 wheat pils recipes all the time, have a very floury grind from my cheap mill, and never have lautering problems. Start of slow to get the grain bed set and then you shouldn't have any problems unless you are lautering too fast.

I tend to boil 90 minutes, but I'm iffy on if it's really neccessary because you're using pils. I tend to think not.

I think Citra is a great bittering hop, but I'd move both it and the 60 min Saaz to first wort. I'd move to 5 min Saaz to flameout so you get more aroma, I would use citra then too.

Rather than paraphrasing Palmer, here's his info on protein rests.

 

[ram5ey]

The rye is what might make you consider the rice hulls. That and wheat together can be a doughy combination. TNGabe is right, You want this to finish as dry as possible so keep the mash temps down and be prepared to add some extra yeast if the saison yeast stalls. I think it was jamil that said champagne yeast can help, but I would definitely check out the Saison episode of the jamil podcast.

 

[Cider123]

+1 on both the FG and the amount of flavors you're adding.

The flavor thing, such as all different malts, several hops additions and then all the extra ginger,corriander, orange zest ,etc. It is similar to ice cream. Some people go to find really good homemade ice cream. They get a few scoops then they load on the toppings. Eventually you only taste the toppings and not the ice cream. Now, if that is your cup of tea, then so be it. My son would rather have a bowl of chocolate syrup and sprinkles than worry about the flavor of ice cream.

I originally tried to get a great beer by thinking of every possible flavor I want and throwing the kitchen sink in the recipe. I make a siason now where I let the yeast do its thing. It is the yeast that brings out a lot of the great flavors you might like in a siason. If you add so much extra flavoring, much of those yeast flavors might be lost.

Some people like their siasons or paterbiers made like a SMaSH. One malt, usually pilsner, and one hops to add a little bitter balance and a little aroma. The rest of the flavor comes from the magic of the yeast. Cooler temps bring phenolic flavors, higher temps bring fruity flavors. Wyeast 3711 is a awesome yeast IMHO. It will take a moderate OG beer down to the wee 1.002 to 1.005's.
I just moved mine from the cellar at 66F to the first floor at 77F. I can't wait to see what happens.
Good luck, in the end you get beer.

BTW to check out some good recipe ideas for lots of styles. Check out northernbrewer.com. Go to learn, then documentation and all-grain kits

 

[motorneuron]

I agree with the idea that needless complexity is bad, but I don't think you've really gotten there yet.

On the spices, I agree you shouldn't go overboard. But I don't think this recipe is that crazy. For example, in Randy Mosher's "basic" saison recipe for five gallons, he recommends .67 oz of crushed coriander, .25 oz of black pepper or grains of paradise, and the zest of a sour/bitter/seville orange. Your amounts really aren't that different (note that seville/sour zest is more potent than normal oranges or lemons), especially given that all the spices except ginger are fairly mild--the kinds of flavors that will blend into the background, rather than dominate. That's why I suggested cutting the ginger but not the rest of it.

I also don't think the number of malts is that crazy. Very light-colored (1L-3L) malted wheat and rye both add only subtle notes to the flavor, and a little Munich will also add only some subtle malty flavors. It's not like you're brewing with 3 pounds of aromatic or Special B here.

As for the gravity, I agree that the style is typically quite dry. I just don't know enough about whether your predicted gravity of 1.014 is accurate to be able to help, since I don't know about how 585 performs.

 

[LoMich]

wow! Lots of info, thanks guys. I'm going to change a few things:

1. Cut out the ginger
2. Reduce the spices by half
3. And my LHBS didn't have the 585 so I went with Wyeast 3711
4. Use the citra and saaz both at first boil and flame out
5. Add .5 lb of rice hulls just to be on the safe side.
6. Add 1 lb of honey instead of .5 to help dry it out.

I do not at all want to over power the beer with added spices, I just wanted some subtle flavors going on. As my first time though I think it probably is best to keep them to a min to let the yeast do what it does. And hopefully my FG will drop down.

 

[motorneuron]

All of those changes sound good to me. With 3711, you will definitely hit your FG target, regardless of sugar vs malt--that yeast is beastly.

 

[LoMich]

Thanks again for the help guys! I changed up the grain just a tad in the recipe as well just to assist in getting it drier. Got my starter going today and will be brewing this guy on sunday! I can't wait

 

[LoMich]

I changed the recipe on my original post to reflect the changes.

 

[Cider123]

When 3711 has done it's job, you might want to wash it and save it. You'll be using it again!

 

[LandoTheGambler]

I personally think spices kind of muddle the flavors of saison... you already get so many aromatics from the yeast. My opinion on this isn't from actual experience brewing with spices, but from comparison of commercial saisons made with and without them.

I haven't tried this, but your recipe made me think it would be interesting to boil a half cup of water with the spices (half the original amount) separately on the stove. Then split the wort in half before pitching the yeast, and add the spices only to one half. An experiment like this would determine if my opinion is justified, or if perhaps it's just that the commercial examples with spices are "muddled" for some other reason (or just subpar).

 

[LoMich]

Well I sampled some of the wort, and I think it came out really nice actually. All the flavors work really well but are subtle, and it's amazing on the nose. Smells like a delicious cup of tea. Due to the grains at my LHBS I had to make a few last min adjustments, went with dark wheat and dark munich. In the carboy it looks a little dark but it looks really golden in the glass. The hops came through nicely, maybe a tad to much but still very pleasant. I'm pretty excited for this one to be done!

 

[LoMich]

Wow, That 3711 is indeed beastly. Finished in at 1.004.