First All Grain - Mashout & Sparge temp questions

[Rolly]

I'll be doing my first all grain w/ batch sparge first thing in the morning tomorrow and I've got some temp questions I can't seem to figure out.

I'm going to mash at 153 for 60 minutes, then stir in about 4-6 qts of boiling water until the mash hits 170 for a 10 minute mashout.

I'm thinking about splitting the sparge into two batch sparges. If i've already done my mashout at 170, then should my water for both sparges be 170 since the grain is already up to temp? Or do I does it need to be higher? I've heard 185 thrown around alot.

Thanks and I can't wait for the morning!

 

[MalFet]

If your grain bed is up to 170 degrees because you've done a mash out, your sparge water will likely only need to be 170 degrees as well. Some of it depends on how you are transferring the water and how much heat gets lost in the process, but 185 would almost certainly be too hot for you. The 185 is a rule of thumb for people who have not done a mash out and need to raise their grain from the 150s. Once you've done a few mashes, you'll get a better sense of how much heat you lose in your system.

 

[flabyboy]

You don't necessarily need to do the mashout. I do 2 separate sparges with 185 degree water. If you don't mashout it's important to get your first runnings onto some heat to stop the enzymatic activity

 

[MalFet]

You don't necessarily need to do the mashout. I do 2 separate sparges with 185 degree water. If you don't mashout it's important to get your first runnings onto some heat to stop the enzymatic activity

Doesn't this cause your second sparge to be pretty darn hot?

 

[pkeeler]

If you don't mashout it's important to get your first runnings onto some heat to stop the enzymatic activity

Why would it be important to stop enzymatic activity? Plus, enzymes are not denatured at 170, that is a myth. I've never heard of someone mashing too long (I could be wrong of course; not breaking balls here just trying to learn). Just that a 90-120 min. infusion mash is a waste of time because all the malt is fully converted much earlier. A 60 min. mash at 153 probably is converted around 20-30 min. So, if it is all converted, why the need to denature the enzymes (which you can't do anyway unless you make things much hotter)?

I've read that experiments show greater efficiency when batch sparging with 185 deg. water. But that is a different statement than saying you need to raise the grain bed to 170 to denature enzymes.

I wouldn't mash out unless your system shows a propensity to have stuck sparges.

 

[Northcalais40]

A mash at 153F is not always going to be converted in 20-30 minutes. It may be for some, it never has for me. I check in 20 minute intervals with iodine for conversion, I need 60-90 minutes, every time.

There are many variables at work, I may be able to tweek something to shorten my mash. But 60-90 min works. If you blindly assume 60min and done, you are potentially wasting a lot more than a bit of time.

 

[flabyboy]

Doesn't this cause your second sparge to be pretty darn hot?

My last mash was at 148, so adding 3 gallons of 185 water really didn't get it up to 170. More like 160-165. Second sparge was probably a little cooler because the water was sitting in a cooler for 20-30 mins. So I should have said 185 and than 180, but its all relative to your mash temp

 

[kanzimonson]

You're correct that starches are converted much quicker than 60mins, but the question is to what degree were they converted?

There are many types of sugar molecules - some are fermentable, some are unfermentable. You could theoretically have a pot full of unfermentable sugars that would still indicate complete conversion if you did an iodine test. Likewise, you could have a pot full of glucose and fructose that would also indicate complete conversion, and it would be 100% fermentable.

So here's the situation: let's say you mash at 158 for 60mins because you want a really dextrinous beer, but then you don't mash out. In this case, you're continually converting everything to simpler forms of sugars, and your beer may not be quite as dextrinous as you expected for a 158* mash.

Having said all that, I don't do a mashout even though my mashtun is direct-fire. I just don't want to waste the propane and I expect/plan for the extra conversion.

 

[kanzimonson]

Plus, enzymes are not denatured at 170, that is a myth.

Source?

 

[MalFet]

Why would it be important to stop enzymatic activity? Plus, enzymes are not denatured at 170, that is a myth. I've never heard of someone mashing too long (I could be wrong of course; not breaking balls here just trying to learn). Just that a 90-120 min. infusion mash is a waste of time because all the malt is fully converted much earlier. A 60 min. mash at 153 probably is converted around 20-30 min. So, if it is all converted, why the need to denature the enzymes (which you can't do anyway unless you make things much hotter)?

I've read that experiments show greater efficiency when batch sparging with 185 deg. water. But that is a different statement than saying you need to raise the grain bed to 170 to denature enzymes.

I wouldn't mash out unless your system shows a propensity to have stuck sparges.

+1 on the call for a source on the claim that enzymes don't denature. All the science stuff that I've read suggests that alpha amylase quickly becomes unviable in the neighborhood of 80C. It's certainly not like they're fine and having fun at 79C and then suddenly they're all dying awful deaths at 80C, but to suggest that enzyme denaturing is a myth seems a bit untrue to me.

And, as others have said, you can certainly mash too long. A 60min mash and a 120min mash will not produce the same beer. A mash is not just about starch conversion, but also about the degree to which complex sugars are broken down. I like to do a mash out because sometimes I get distracted during my sparge and let it take longer than it otherwise should. Longer or shorter is not necessasily bad, but they produce different beers. If you are more consistent in your sparge times than I am, it's not necessary perhaps. I think mash out is less about quality and more about consistency. Some people have very consistent process without a mash out, and that's fine. For others, a mash out is a good way to ensure consistency.

 

[pkeeler]

I've changed my mind while looking into this since the post. Like I said, I wasn't trying to be combative, just trying to flush the info out more with a little devil's advocacy.

I think this comes down to process. If you are doing a single batch sparge (like I do) and your entire lautering is over in 20 min., what is happening in the kettle is less important. Further, a mash out is less important as the fermentability of the wort will not change much since you are boiling 30 min. after the first vorlauf.

But, if you are doing longer sparges, which many are, then it is possible that Beta-A is at work in the wort in the kettle while you continue to sparge. 30-60 min. of that could make your wort much more fermentable than you had planned.

Beta-A is quickly deactivated at 160F. Alpha-A is still active at 170. In fact, it is very active, as its optimum temp is 162-167F.

http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Theory_of_Mashing

Alpha-A is deactivated over 176F. But 176F is never the number people use. They continue to say, "170F to denature enzymes". The 170F number never had anything to do with enzymes. It is the point where tannin extraction becomes much easier. That is why you mash out as high as but under 170. Somewhere along the line, someone attached enzyme denaturing to the tannin extraction temp. That is the creation of the urban myth I'm talking about.

 

[MalFet]

I think this comes down to process. If you are doing a single batch sparge (like I do) and your entire lautering is over in 20 min., what is happening in the kettle is less important. Further, a mash out is less important as the fermentability of the wort will not change much since you are boiling 30 min. after the first vorlauf.

But, if you are doing longer sparges, which many are, then it is possible that Beta-A is at work in the wort in the kettle while you continue to sparge. 30-60 min. of that could make your wort much more fermentable than you had planned.

Precisely. I don't think anybody would argue that a mash out is the only way to make good beer, but rather that time is an important factor in mash character. A mash out is one way that can help keep that time consistent. It will be more important or less important for any particular person based on their setup.

Beta-A is quickly deactivated at 160F. Alpha-A is still active at 170. In fact, it is very active, as its optimum temp is 162-167F.

http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Theory_of_Mashing

Alpha-A is deactivated over 176F. But 176F is never the number people use. They continue to say, "170F to denature enzymes". The 170F number never had anything to do with enzymes. It is the point where tannin extraction becomes much easier. That is why you mash out as high as but under 170. Somewhere along the line, someone attached enzyme denaturing to the tannin extraction temp. That is the creation of the urban myth I'm talking about.

These temperatures aren't hard points. Enzyme activity and viability maps out like a bell-curve over a range of temperatures. As I understand it, 170F is cited as a mash-out temp because is a good compromise: it more-or-less wipes out Beta-A, slows down Alpha-A significantly, solubilizes sugars and has low risks of tannin extraction (which should only be relevant if pH is out of whack). Beta-A, in particular, will drive a mash totally dry if given enough time. Early in my career, I accidentally mashed in the low 170s and the beer barely fermented. I take your broader point, but to say that 170F has nothing to do with enzymes is still a bit stronger than I understand things.

 

[SKMO]

Wow... Pkeeler and MalFet,

I've been doing all grain for about 15 years, and have always been confused by the chemistry. I mash in at 148-150ish for the light beers and Belgians, and 154-158 for porters and stouts. Always mash out around 170.

Anyway both of you seem to have a real grip on the chemistry here, could you boil down your thinking into a succinct sentence or two that my feeble mind can grasp.

i.e What are the real basics to adhere to and understand?

 

[Northcalais40]

I seem to remember from Papazian and Palmer that there is always a time interval attached to a temp when they are talking about denaturing enzymes. I honestly don't recall the numbers, but assuming you get your mashout temp to 168F and keep it there during fly sparging, you'll be denatured before long.

That said, these two sources are considering fly sparging, not batch, so with no mash out you have conversion continuing for upwards of an hour.

Like Pkeeler is saying, if you are batching, you may well be boiling before the mash out temp has time to denature.

 

[Legin]

these temperatures aren't hard points. Enzyme activity and viability maps out like a bell-curve over a range of temperatures. As i understand it, 170f is cited as a mash-out temp because is a good compromise: It more-or-less wipes out beta-a, slows down alpha-a significantly, solubilizes sugars and has low risks of tannin extraction (which should only be relevant if ph is out of whack). Beta-a, in particular, will drive a mash totally dry if given enough time. Early in my career, i accidentally mashed in the low 170s and the beer barely fermented. I take your broader point, but to say that 170f has nothing to do with enzymes is still a bit stronger than i understand things.

+1
Less likely for a stuck sparge also.

 

[pkeeler]

Anyway both of you seem to have a real grip on the chemistry here, could you boil down your thinking into a succinct sentence or two that my feeble mind can grasp.

i.e What are the real basics to adhere to and understand?

The chemistry is beyond me LOL. The go to sources are Kaiser and Palmer. But you only have to absorb their conclusions. How the hydrogen atoms move around is not necessary, imo. But that is the engineer in me; learn enough just to make you dangerous ;-)

 

[Kugster]

Okay...I have always done batch sparges...two usually...and each one i let sit for oh...10-20mins before I drain, then add the second and let that sit too. I get my sparge water pretty hot (at work and can't review my last brew) latley what ever BS says to heat to...by doing this this way...am I missing something? not that my beers have turned out bad...but just wondering if I there is something I could improve on?

 

[MalFet]

Wow... Pkeeler and MalFet,

I've been doing all grain for about 15 years, and have always been confused by the chemistry. I mash in at 148-150ish for the light beers and Belgians, and 154-158 for porters and stouts. Always mash out around 170.

Anyway both of you seem to have a real grip on the chemistry here, could you boil down your thinking into a succinct sentence or two that my feeble mind can grasp.

i.e What are the real basics to adhere to and understand?

Like pkeeler said, the mechanics are less important than the outcomes. I really don't understand this stuff terribly well compared to kaiser, menschmachine, and some of the other denizens of the science forum, but my understanding of the punchline is this:

There are many enzymes critical to the conversion of starches to sugars, but when picking a mash temperature and time you are really only trying to manipulate two of them: alpha amylase and beta amylase. (Protein rests add more enzymes to the mix, but they're relatively rare these days.)

Starches are made up of long chains of simple sugars. Alpha and beta amylase both help to break down these large, complex starches (that are useless to yeast) into small, simple sugars (that yeast like to eat). Alpha amylase can break starches apart anywhere in the chain, and as a result produces a wide range of different products: small simple sugars, medium sized dextrins, slightly less large starches, etc. Beta amylase can attack the starches only at the ends can only break off a single maltose molecule from the complex chain. They work much more slowly, but produce a much simpler product. Imagine that you've got a bunch of logs that you need to break up. Alpha amylase is like a guy with an axe hacking the logs into pieces; some pieces will be big, and some pieces will be small. Beta amylase is like a guy with a power sander grinding away on the log from either end; he's only producing small pieces.

You can manipulate these two different enzymes to control your ultimate sugar profile. Alpha amylase stays active throughout all reasonable mash temperatures (say, 148F-158F). Beta amylase, on the other hand, quickly starts dying off as you move into the low 150s. Likewise, a high mash temperature will prioritize alpha amylase activity, which leads to more complex sugars and dextrins, and thus will give you a less fermentable wort appropriate to styles that should have a bit of residual sweetness and full body. A low mash temperature will prioritize beta amylase activity, which leads to more simple maltose, and thus a highly fermentable wort appropriate to styles that should finish very dry.

The last two batches I brewed were a Scottish ale at 158F and a saison at 147. The Scottish ale ended up with lots of dextrins and complex sugars (heavy and sweet), but it only attenuated 65% or so. The saison, on the other hand, has already attenuated 90% and isn't done yet. As a result of all that simple maltose that ended up in the wort, the saison will be dry as a bone.

For more details, check out Kaiser's page that pkeeler linked to. It's extremely good. Palmer's a smart guy too, but I find some of the metaphors that he uses in How to Brew to be pretty incomprehensible. That said, there's a lot of good detail about mash process in there.

 

[dinertime]

I seem to remember from Papazian and Palmer that there is always a time interval attached to a temp when they are talking about denaturing enzymes. I honestly don't recall the numbers, but assuming you get your mashout temp to 168F and keep it there during fly sparging, you'll be denatured before long.

Something most people don't realize is that the temperatures that are mentioned for denaturing are idealized for simplicity. It is really more about the rate at which the enzymes denature. Denaturing can be considered an irreversible inactivation of the enzymes, but there isn't a hard and fast temperature at which this will occur. It occurs at a slow rate even at regular mash temps and at a much higher rate at mash out temps. I imagine the rate is much faster for Beta at any given temp than for Alpha but I don't know that for certain.

I hope that helps. I wish I could make it clearer but i am tired and my brain has stopped working for the night.

 

[SKMO]

Like pkeeler said, the mechanics are less important than the outcomes.

Thanks to all for your efforts. I have always struggled with this. I am borderline comprehending. Suffice to say I shoot for 148-50 for light and amber ales, and 154-8 for heavier stuff.

Thanks again, I'll eventually get it.

 

[kanzimonson]

There's no reason you couldn't mash a light colored beer at higher temps - mashing has to do with 1) how much body you want in your final beer and 2) how fermentable you want your wort to be. An example is the Lagunitas IPA, which is mashed at 160.

Same thing with a dark beer. Let's say you want to make a giant Imperial Stout. With so much malt in it, you decide want it to be very fermentable so it has as low a final gravity as possible. So you mash at 149 for 90 minutes. In this case, not only will the beer finish at a lower gravity, but it will still have a ton of body just because you put a bunch of malt in there.