Ferment in one vessel, rack, THEN inoculate?

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dawn_kiebawls

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Hey guys and gals,

I'm itching to brew my first sour/funk beer but I have a limited amount of equipment. My problem is that my only primary fermentor is a plastic spiedel that I don't want to be dedicated as my bug vessel. The only other fermentors I have are 5 gal glass carboys, but I don't want to primary a 5 gal batch in one for obvious blowoff reasons, and since my equipment is so limited I dont want to do a split batch and tie up 2/3 of my production volume for months on end.

Would it be possible (er, worth while), though I understand not ideal, to ferment clean in the spiedel, then rack to a carboy where I then inoculate with brett/lacto/what-have-you. I know this is not ideal because i will lose some character and it will likely take longer to achieve a finished product, but, money is tight right now and I cant afford a new fermentor.

I have in mind to do a simple saison for now because my ferm chamber just went tits up :mad: and I'm now unable to control temps, other than stick it in my garage and let it get hot or wrap it in a heating pad. Assuming this isn't a totally dumb idea all together I figure I could rack just after high krausen so there would be enough co2 production to still protect from oxidation.

I'm open to any thoughts, advice, experience you may have had positive or negative. Thanks!
 
YES you will be fine. Rack to a secondary vessel before inoculating with bugs and then when the batch is finished, clean out the secondary fermenter making good and sure you use a brush to thoroughly dislodge and remove any biofilms that will definitely have formed, then employ a strong, hot bleach soak (overnight or longer) to make good and sure everything is dead before a thorough rinse and store the vessel for your next batch. If you have spigots, hoses, etc. you'll need to boil them thoroughly before you even consider reusing them with another non-sour batch of beer. Starsan is great for killing any residual microbes that might land on an already thoroughly clean surface but don't rely on it to kill souring organisms. Pay special attention to threaded parts, rubber components, crevices, o-rings, etc. This is why most home brewers who make sours will generally have a second set of "sour" equipment dedicated for use with wild ferments, just to lighten the workload.

Man, you are on an exciting path! So far I haven't yet gathered the courage to foray into sours but your post is inspiring!
 
I have in mind to do a simple saison
If you're worried about Brett contamination, you should also be worried about contamination from most Saison strains.
I figure I could rack just after high krausen so there would be enough co2 production to still protect from oxidation.
That's perfect, IMO.

...
A warm 24h PBW soak and acid rinse are all the cleaning that's needed, in my experience. I routinely make sours/wild stuff and "clean" beers on the same set of equipment.
 
If you're worried about Brett contamination, you should also be worried about contamination from most Saison strains.

I've often heard that WY3711 is a possible contaminant, but haven't heard much about other saison strains. Which others come to mind? WY3726 is the only saison strain I've ever worked with and never noticed any 'infection', if you will. Maybe I just got lucky and chose to work with one of the less troublesome strains. Either way, thanks for your reply and helping me make the jump to (hopefully exclusively) sour beers soon. Cheers!
 
Man, you are on an exciting path! So far I haven't yet gathered the courage to foray into sours but your post is inspiring!

Thanks for double checking my process and giving me some encouragement! If this experiment goes well I will report back and maybe try to give you the last little nudge to take the leap :) I wanted to brew sours since before I started brewing so it was only a matter of time. Unfortunately, I took a couple years off from brewing and my fiancee convinced me to get rid of my starter/collection of dregs from a couple dozen of my favorite sours...
 
I've often heard that WY3711 is a possible contaminant, but haven't heard much about other saison strains. Which others come to mind? WY3726 is the only saison strain I've ever worked with and never noticed any 'infection', if you will. Maybe I just got lucky and chose to work with one of the less troublesome strains. Either way, thanks for your reply and helping me make the jump to (hopefully exclusively) sour beers soon. Cheers!

I think RPH_Guy is referring to any STA-1 positive yeast, which most Saison yeasts are, including 3726. The reason you haven't seen an infection? Because you sanitize. STA-1 (or Diastaticus yeasts) are like any others, susceptible to good sanitation practices. Just like Brett strains.
 
I love saisons, apex predator by off color brewing is one of my all time favorite beers. 3711 and 3724 work really well together, produce great flavors and won't stall halfway through the way 3711 alone sometimes will. I'm glad the warm weather is finally almost here, time to brew farmhouse styles again!
 
I love saisons, apex predator by off color brewing is one of my all time favorite beers. 3711 and 3724 work really well together, produce great flavors and won't stall halfway through the way 3711 alone sometimes will. I'm glad the warm weather is finally almost here, time to brew farmhouse styles again!

Did you mean to say 3724 - it is the noted staller, not 3711 which is said to be able to ferment an old shoe. Of course, I personally haven't seen 3724 stall, so I think it's somewhat overblown.
 
That's pretty much exactly what to do - depending on exactly what type of sour you're planning on.
I have one that I have made a few times. It's based on the Russian River's Consecration, so you start with a Belgian Strong Dark Ale, then add the bug blends, toss in etc.
So my brew day is the same as always, the primary fermentation is with Abbey Ale yeast. Once that's about done, I rack to a glass carboy (mine live in milk crates, strapped in, and I always wear boots and jeans when messing with them)
And then pitch the bug blends. Most of those actually want some oxygen to get going, then they form the pellicle to protect against further oxygenation. (that's how it was described to me.) I also add in sour cherries (the original uses black currents) and much later on I add in oak cubes that have been soaking in run (the original is wine barrel staves)
A year later I'm ready to package.
 
I think RPH_Guy is referring to any STA-1 positive yeast, which most Saison yeasts are, including 3726. The reason you haven't seen an infection? Because you sanitize. STA-1 (or Diastaticus yeasts) are like any others, susceptible to good sanitation practices. Just like Brett strains.
Exactly. :)

BTW there are fast ways to make funky sours if you guys are interested:
https://***************.com/wiki/Sour_beer
 
If you can get your hands on either, I highly suggest Bootleg Bio's Mad Fermentationist Saison Blend or Omega's C2C American Farmhouse. Omega's is a blend of sacc and brett, while BB's is sacc, brett, and lacto. Both turned out amazing, rustic, funky saisons for me.
 
If you can get your hands on either, I highly suggest Bootleg Bio's Mad Fermentationist Saison Blend or Omega's C2C American Farmhouse. Omega's is a blend of sacc and brett, while BB's is sacc, brett, and lacto. Both turned out amazing, rustic, funky saisons for me.

Both of those strains sound incredible. Sadly, I have no access to either of them (ECY is another one I can never seem to track down)! I will eventually get my hand on the Omega since its only a 3 hour drive away, but will use it once I have some dedicated sour equipment. Thanks for the recommendation!
 
Both of those strains sound incredible. Sadly, I have no access to either of them (ECY is another one I can never seem to track down)! I will eventually get my hand on the Omega since its only a 3 hour drive away, but will use it once I have some dedicated sour equipment. Thanks for the recommendation!
You obviously have access to the internet - order them! I think Bootleg Biology distributed through some homebrew shops, but I'd wager most of their business is done through shipping. I too am a 3-hour drive from the nearest homebrew shop, so I get lots of yeast through online orders. Never had a problem.

Also, dedicated equipment is a good idea, but not entirely necessary,
 
I'd wager most of their business is done through shipping.
I had the Mad Ferm blend delivered right to my door via direct online order at Bootleg Bio. I got the C2C blend in-person at my local shop, but they ship nationally, so that should be doable. The caveat for the Mad Ferm blend is that it's typically offered quarterly, and sells out within the first day of offering. It's well worth trying to get, though - sign up for their mailing list to be looped in. The C2C blend is a year-round offering, so that should be easier to get.
 
With the MF blend, I get big fruit - apricot. There's a whole thread about it here, started by the Mad Fermentationist himself. With C2C I get big barnyard funk. I've learned I'm in the minority there.
 
Personally I’m a big fan of primary fermenting with a non diastaticus yeast and then transferring to a second vessel and adding wild yeast/Brett/bacteria.

This method is pretty common place in a lot of breweries. It doesn’t need to be a Saison yeast either. New Belgium for instance primaries with a lager yeast at warm temps before transferring into wood.

You don’t need to be worried as much about oxidation with mixed fermentation beer. The reason most breweries that produce the style use wood as a secondary vessel is that it oxidizes the beer. A lot of these same breweries use gravity fill bottling units that further oxidize the beer. I’ve heard Vinnie speak about the positive aspects of oxidation on mixed culture beer.

Personally I prefer to wait until the primary yeast strain has flocculated before transferring to secondary. I know Brett will supposedly transform autolysis byproducts but I prefer to have as little yeast make it into secondary as possible. You can run some Co2 into the glass carboy while filling it to offer some protection. Definitely fill the carboy right up to the neck. But I personally wouldn’t transfer while there is still active fermentation as you’ll be transferring a ton of yeast.

Big fan of the Andechs strain of yeast. It’s one of the only highly flocculent Belgian strains. It produces a decent amount of esters and phenols, leaves some residual sugar, and clears pretty quickly. Way faster than most saison strains that’s for sure.
 
Personally I’m a big fan of primary fermenting with a non diastaticus yeast and then transferring to a second vessel and adding wild yeast/Brett/bacteria.

This method is pretty common place in a lot of breweries. It doesn’t need to be a Saison yeast either. New Belgium for instance primaries with a lager yeast at warm temps before transferring into wood.

You don’t need to be worried as much about oxidation with mixed fermentation beer. The reason most breweries that produce the style use wood as a secondary vessel is that it oxidizes the beer. A lot of these same breweries use gravity fill bottling units that further oxidize the beer. I’ve heard Vinnie speak about the positive aspects of oxidation on mixed culture beer.

Personally I prefer to wait until the primary yeast strain has flocculated before transferring to secondary. I know Brett will supposedly transform autolysis byproducts but I prefer to have as little yeast make it into secondary as possible. You can run some Co2 into the glass carboy while filling it to offer some protection. Definitely fill the carboy right up to the neck. But I personally wouldn’t transfer while there is still active fermentation as you’ll be transferring a ton of yeast.

Big fan of the Andechs strain of yeast. It’s one of the only highly flocculent Belgian strains. It produces a decent amount of esters and phenols, leaves some residual sugar, and clears pretty quickly. Way faster than most saison strains that’s for sure.
Delayed Brett pitching vs co-pitching...
Transferring yeast vs not...
Have you tried it both ways with the exact same grist, yeast strains, temperatures, etc? What differences did you find?
 
Delayed Brett pitching vs co-pitching...
Transferring yeast vs not...
Have you tried it both ways with the exact same grist, yeast strains, temperatures, etc? What differences did you find?

I preferred the Brett character when delayed pitching. It only takes about a month after primary to get the character and gravity drop I’m looking for.

Head retention and mouthfeel were improved when transferring as little yeast as possible into secondary.
 
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Anecdotally, I get more Brett funk when I pitch Brett after the primary fermentation where I don't use diastaticus yeast. If I want to really accentuate the Brett flavor in a beer, I'll mash at ~160, add some maltodextrin/more wheat or rye, primary with a phenolic wine yeast for a couple weeks, transfer to a keg where I pitch Brett and spund it. If I want less Brett flavor, different combinations of less (or non) phenolic primary yeasts, lower mash temps/no maltodextrin/less wheat or rye, pitch Brett earlier (or co-pitch)... all seem to lessen the Brett intensity to varying degrees.

If you just want Brett, it is fairly easy to sanitize still and no real need for separate equipment if you are careful (still a good idea). If you start adding in bacteria, it becomes fairly easy to contaminate if you slip up. Personally the only real equipment I keep separate are the kegs, fermenters and taps. I invested stainless and silicone pieces to where I can heat sanitize them along with chemicals to be extra sure. Since I went that route, I haven't had any cross contamination.
 
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I had the Mad Ferm blend delivered right to my door via direct online order at Bootleg Bio. I got the C2C blend in-person at my local shop, but they ship nationally, so that should be doable. The caveat for the Mad Ferm blend is that it's typically offered quarterly, and sells out within the first day of offering. It's well worth trying to get, though - sign up for their mailing list to be looped in. The C2C blend is a year-round offering, so that should be easier to get.

Thanks for the tips and the heads up! I just ordered 2 packs of the Bootleg Bio Saison blend, which is actually in stock right now...I'm SO freaking excited!!
 

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