Facelift for my control panel
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augiedoggy
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So Just a small update... I retuned the pid values for my 1800w rims tube and on a 11 gallon brew (9 gallons of mash liquid) the pid hit a max of 21% and averaged 18% power to maintain 151 degrees... Just something to think about when considering a shorter 5500w rims element for a rims.
I actually intend to use 2 of these 36" long elements in a 76" long rims for my 3 bbl setup im planning.. everyone seems to think 3600w is no where near enough power but my data shows otherwise since I really believe the longer element length and increased contact time on every pass is the key to better rims efficiency. I will be increasing the flow speed on the 3 bbl setup which is the reason for longer length and more power.)
I actually intend to use 2 of these 36" long elements in a 76" long rims for my 3 bbl setup im planning.. everyone seems to think 3600w is no where near enough power but my data shows otherwise since I really believe the longer element length and increased contact time on every pass is the key to better rims efficiency. I will be increasing the flow speed on the 3 bbl setup which is the reason for longer length and more power.)
Wizard_of_Frobozz
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Augiedoggy, how does the PID perform during ramps? Going from 151F to 169F for example. I agree with you that maintaining mash temps during a rest requires very little power but I'm curious about ramp times with your setup. As long as the ramp times are reasonable, I think your system is the best engineering compromise.
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augiedoggy
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I have to test that... In the past I would get 2- 2.5 degrees per minute rise as I recirculate On the pid
I think the contact time is valid, though theoretically heat is heat. Certainly less local overheating is a good thing.
2 degrees per min is pretty good. On a 5 / 10 gal rig, the 1800W should be plenty for steps.
2 degrees per min is pretty good. On a 5 / 10 gal rig, the 1800W should be plenty for steps.
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augiedoggy
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Well that's just it. if the rims is very short and the flow is high enough the heat transfer is inconsistent and unevenly with some of the liquid being heated with very high localized Heat. I think for multiple reasons that's not ideal. I know it's been mentioned before but I think the longer rims has more of the benefits of the herms without the drawbacks.
By the way the graph in the Bru Control software worked awesome for tuning the PID values.
Wizard_of_Frobozz
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Heat is heat, but heat exchange efficiency is a real thing. If your configuration can't get all the heat into your fluid, then the heating element heats up since it has nowhere else to go. This makes the heat flow faster, since the delta T is higher BUT if the surface area of the heating element gets too hot, you get scorching and possibly film boiling which really cuts down on the heat put into the fluid. I admit that's pretty hard to do in our scenarios but I've seen it when I used a small, high power element in my earlier attempts at building a system.
Spreading out the heat exchange surface with a long heating element like @augiedoggy has done is the best approach, since it allows more heat into the fluid through the RIMS chamber, while keeping heater power low. In essence, extremely low watt density is the goal.
We need another term to classify augie's setup. "Ultra Low Watt Density" isn't enough...have to come up with an acronym that spells something beer related...
Agree with all of that! I wish I could replicate a setup like his but get ~5-6kW out of it for my direct sparging. I figured out I could do it with 4x cartridge heaters in the NorCal thrifty RIMs but I just haven't finalized the design and pulled the trigger yet...
Cool! Thanks for letting me know!
Wizard_of_Frobozz
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I've been looking at the same thing. Best I could come up with was this heating element: http://www.ebrewsupply.com/304-stainless-steel-element-6000w-straight/
It's a 22 inch long, foldback design; watt density is stated at 88 w/sq. in at 6000W. Not quite augiedoggy's 30+ inches, but still lots of length for extended contact times. Another benefit is that it should work in a typical RIMS chamber, albeit a longer than normal one. A tri-clover based RIMS tube should be easy to add an extension to.
For control, you could do the typical 240/120V contactor set up where you switch voltages, but a simpler method would be to set up the code to limit the power level/duty cycle during mashing, then go full power during sparging. Can BruControl do that?
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augiedoggy
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what about a couple of these?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/FAST-HEAT-C...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649
Wizard_of_Frobozz
Well-Known Member
One thing I've seen in researching cartridge heaters is that some are not designed for immersion in liquid. It has to do with the seal type at the end as far as I can tell. Any idea how to tell if these are rated for liquid immersion?
You would have to seal off the ends. So it would be a pipe with tees on both ends, then compression fittings in the ends. Slide the heaters in from each end and tighten compression fittings. Inlet/outlet via the perpendicular tee fittings.
No doubt this would work. The overall length would be a bit tricky but do-able. I was thinking about 4x threaded heaters with threaded ends. Take a 2" TC cap, thread 4 holes in it, mount the heaters into those, then insert into the NorCal thrifty RIMs. This would be more $ but more compact.
I called a Watlow distributor for a price, and we picked the part number, but he never called me back! I didn't pursue any further, as my RIMS is working well. Since I mash at low power, and heat water only at high power, it is not really a problem. But I know the design could be better!
Side note: my system was built with a high/low power relay to switch the RIMS power from 5500 <-> 1350W. If I were building this again, I would skip the relay and just use the PID max output limiter in BruControl. This parameter can be set via a script (or manually), so it would be the software equivalent of the relay to limit power into the element. I haven't tested this, but I am confident it would work. Higher mass elements like cartridge heaters would work even better in this design to reduce local temp "pulsing", but keeping the PID output time fast would also reduce that effect. Anyway, mental musings!
No doubt this would work. The overall length would be a bit tricky but do-able. I was thinking about 4x threaded heaters with threaded ends. Take a 2" TC cap, thread 4 holes in it, mount the heaters into those, then insert into the NorCal thrifty RIMs. This would be more $ but more compact.
I called a Watlow distributor for a price, and we picked the part number, but he never called me back! I didn't pursue any further, as my RIMS is working well. Since I mash at low power, and heat water only at high power, it is not really a problem. But I know the design could be better!
Side note: my system was built with a high/low power relay to switch the RIMS power from 5500 <-> 1350W. If I were building this again, I would skip the relay and just use the PID max output limiter in BruControl. This parameter can be set via a script (or manually), so it would be the software equivalent of the relay to limit power into the element. I haven't tested this, but I am confident it would work. Higher mass elements like cartridge heaters would work even better in this design to reduce local temp "pulsing", but keeping the PID output time fast would also reduce that effect. Anyway, mental musings!
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augiedoggy
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as brundog said I made mine watertight by drilling out a compression fitting and locking it down on the element. Ive done this with all 5 or 6 elements Ive tried in various setups and it works well.
Wizard_of_Frobozz
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How well does that drain? My current setup has my RIMS tube vertical, with the heater element pointing downward. The fluid enters from the bottom (no t-fitting, just a vertical coupler & barbed fitting) and comes out a side port right at the top. This allows it to drain completely, with nothing trapped inside at the end of a brew day.
I would like to stick with a vertical configuration for that reason as well as the fact that you have to go up to the top of the mash tun anyway. Less piping that way!
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augiedoggy
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no reason you cant do the same here... I did not do that myself because I did not like the idea of the air pocket at the base of the element..
My setup does work well for me horizontally and it does drain well... Its tough to tell but mine is angled slightly. so I can just put a bucket under it when I push cleaning solution backwards or drain it.
Wizard_of_Frobozz
Well-Known Member
Thanks! At 36 inches, that's a long horizontal run - could take up a lot of space on your brew rig. Vertical makes sense to me but it's nice to hear that horizontal doesn't have drainage issues if you set it up properly. Time for some creative engineering!
As for the air pocket at the element base, I had a custom fitting made for the top of the RIMS tube. It's a pipe cap that I had drilled out with a 1" straight thread for the element, and a side port drilled into it right at the top; had a pipe w/ 1/2" threaded end welded onto that for the exit. No air pockets; I could probably do something similar sized for a cartridge heater on both ends but I don't live near the guy who made it for me anymore. Maybe a local machine shop will take some beer in trade...or @jaybird at Norcal could make something: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=582539
If you were going to build a new power box from scratch using BruControl as the control panel, would you add 3-way switches for manual control of pumps and elements, something like Electric Brewing Supply's BCS panel? Is there really any need for manual control plus all of the LED indications?
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augiedoggy
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I dont believe so no... I guess if anything you could just close ballvalves if something went wrong with a pump staying on or unplug it?If you were going to build a new power box from scratch using BruControl as the control panel, would you add 3-way switches for manual control of pumps and elements, something like Electric Brewing Supply's BCS panel? Is there really any need for manual control plus all of the LED indications?
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augiedoggy
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Did a bit of reorganizing and moved the second screen for the brewing pc which I use for brewsmith info while brewing (and entertainment )
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So am I correct in assuming you went from your original box in your avatar to the one you have now which looks like only has a power switch and an emergency stop switch plus associated indicators. Also what does the small LCD screen in the top middle of the panel display?
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augiedoggy
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Thats correct.. The lcd panel displays the amp draw/wattage and voltage as well as KWH's ive used... Its an easy way for me to be sure if any elements are on or off or anythings wrong.
Dont forget I use dc pumps and control them with pwm speed controllers via my pc touchscreen (mouse and keyboard works fine too) I do also have all my elements wired to contactor/relays in a series with the ssr so they can be turned on or off even in the event of a failure. also I wired my two main kettle elements on a dps so only one or the other can be on at one time along with rims. (30A main service).
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augiedoggy
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Ive honestly only had to hit the emergency stop once when I left one of my pumps recircing boiling pbw for a while and the pump seized... This was causing the dc power to fluctuate on and off in my panel.. once I realized what was wrong I unplugged the pump and powered it back up...
At first I was afraid to lose my analog controls but the only place I sometimes miss them is when controlling the pumps and pump speed.. Brundog was working on shortcut buttons as an option to make control just as quick and easy on the panel.
At first I was afraid to lose my analog controls but the only place I sometimes miss them is when controlling the pumps and pump speed.. Brundog was working on shortcut buttons as an option to make control just as quick and easy on the panel.
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augiedoggy
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I also picked up this inline filter... https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Lon...32805890242.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.3Bqldv
I will try using it somehow in place of my hopspiders because thats what I will be doing in my 3 bbl setup... I intend to also use it for dryhopped beers when transferring from my conicals. its the larger 4" diameter filter with 100 mesh screen.. shipping was very fast, I got it in less than 2 weeks.
I will try using it somehow in place of my hopspiders because thats what I will be doing in my 3 bbl setup... I intend to also use it for dryhopped beers when transferring from my conicals. its the larger 4" diameter filter with 100 mesh screen.. shipping was very fast, I got it in less than 2 weeks.
storunner13
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You're using MOSFET boards for the PWM, correct? I think I can spot them in your panel.
And you're using basic relay boards to control the contactors, correct? With a double throw relay to control which 25A element fires?
I've been going back and forth between going all software controlled relays, and having some switches for elements. Can you send a screenshot of your BruControl workspace? Can you set up a device to switch elements?
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augiedoggy
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yes they are mosfet boards for the DC pumps only though... Nothing special but the ssr is needed for element pwm control.
all the standard arduino relay boards have a NO and NC position so I wired them to only allow one or the other to be on at once and I use them to control regular 25A 2 pole relays. and yes I have a software touchscreen "on and off" switch for each element on top of pid control and additional pwm control for my BK element.
I dont really have any closeup photos of the brewery control screen as it looks today.. I'll have to take one.
To hopefully add some flavor: yes, you can set up a device to switch elements (via relay which determines which contractor can be on) in circumstances where you have 30A feed but have 2 or more heating elements. We could handle limiting this in software but I️ think strongly that this is never a safe route. Hardware that guarantees only one element be powered at a time should be employed.
storunner13
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Thanks. I identified the wiring needed to make it easy to prevent both element contactors from being activated, as well as deactivate both contactors. It's easy enough with two SPDT relays, but I was not making the connection in my minds eye.
As I work through getting all my panel parts in order, I've been thinking more and more about going with BruControl, mostly because of the PWM capabilities for 24v pumps, but also what appears to be relative easy of customization. First I was building for StrangeBrew, then CraftBeerPi, then thoughts about Brewtroller after dismissing BCS. Lots of difficult decisions.
As I work through getting all my panel parts in order, I've been thinking more and more about going with BruControl, mostly because of the PWM capabilities for 24v pumps, but also what appears to be relative easy of customization. First I was building for StrangeBrew, then CraftBeerPi, then thoughts about Brewtroller after dismissing BCS. Lots of difficult decisions.
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augiedoggy
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To be clear this is exactly what I've done (hardware) to only allow one of the two larger elements to fire at once. Though unnecessary I also use float and flow switches for my HLT and rims to prevent accidents.
I just wanted to comment on the cartridge heating element.. I built a rims similar to yours, Augie but I've used a TC blank with not hole to connect to the compression fitting...I can get to practically 100% of the element surface for cleaning...having said that I took it apart after about 10 brews and it's clean as a whistle
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augiedoggy
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I intend to mount the elements for my 3bbl rims in tri clamp fitting like above myself.
Sweet. Sweet.
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augiedoggy
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I just wanted to follow up on some discoveries Ive made with my brewing setup... So the last 5 brew sessions I have decided to change the way I brew a bit when it comes to mashout and sparging... Previously I just turned two 3 way valves and diverted the mash into the bk at mash temps while pumping sparge water into the MT to replace it and would be done mashing in 10 mins without a real mashout (sparge water was 168 degrees) So even though my mash efficiencies were super high my sparge was nothing special.
So I decided to just try slowing my sparge down to 20% on my pwm controlled pumps first which resulted in 3 brew sessions between 88 and 91% efficiency (previous average was 86%). Then thanks to some advice I got here I decided to do a mashout by bringing my recirculating mash up to 168 before transferring to the BK commenced and sparging slowly the result on the last two brew sessions was 91.6% and 92.7%(mashing at 150 and 151 degrees respectively) according to beersmith. An interesting thing with the mashout was that my gravity jumped quite a bit from just this! sundays brew for example was 1.048 before the mashout and them 1.051 after by just taking the 15 mins or so to raise my mash to 168
This does translate into an extra 45 mins or so added to my brew session but in all I started heating my water at 11 am and the wort was in the conical by 3:30 so it still wasnt bad at all.
On an unrelated note I also decided to use the new hop filter I bought with the 100 mesch screen inside as opposed to my hop spiders ive been using. I placed the hop filter between the pump and my plate chiller and whirlpooled with my stirrer for about 10 mins prior to using it... about 10 seconds in I had to switch exit ports on my bk because I used the port with the stainless braid on the diptube which of course plugged solid with hops quickly. then I switched ports and even though I could tell my pump was under a lot of stress I was able to pump and chill into the conical. at the end I had to disconnect the filter and blow into the filter to push the last remaining beer from the filter.. this was a pain in the ass compared to using the hop spiders and I much prefer the use of the spiders, I had a lot more wasted wort left in the bottom of the BK mixed with hops and overall this cost me about .75 gallons of wort vs the 4-8 oz or so I normally would lose. Luckily I had 11.25 galllons of wort at the end of the boil since we were concerned with this happening and adjusted the session for this.
So I decided to just try slowing my sparge down to 20% on my pwm controlled pumps first which resulted in 3 brew sessions between 88 and 91% efficiency (previous average was 86%). Then thanks to some advice I got here I decided to do a mashout by bringing my recirculating mash up to 168 before transferring to the BK commenced and sparging slowly the result on the last two brew sessions was 91.6% and 92.7%(mashing at 150 and 151 degrees respectively) according to beersmith. An interesting thing with the mashout was that my gravity jumped quite a bit from just this! sundays brew for example was 1.048 before the mashout and them 1.051 after by just taking the 15 mins or so to raise my mash to 168
This does translate into an extra 45 mins or so added to my brew session but in all I started heating my water at 11 am and the wort was in the conical by 3:30 so it still wasnt bad at all.
On an unrelated note I also decided to use the new hop filter I bought with the 100 mesch screen inside as opposed to my hop spiders ive been using. I placed the hop filter between the pump and my plate chiller and whirlpooled with my stirrer for about 10 mins prior to using it... about 10 seconds in I had to switch exit ports on my bk because I used the port with the stainless braid on the diptube which of course plugged solid with hops quickly. then I switched ports and even though I could tell my pump was under a lot of stress I was able to pump and chill into the conical. at the end I had to disconnect the filter and blow into the filter to push the last remaining beer from the filter.. this was a pain in the ass compared to using the hop spiders and I much prefer the use of the spiders, I had a lot more wasted wort left in the bottom of the BK mixed with hops and overall this cost me about .75 gallons of wort vs the 4-8 oz or so I normally would lose. Luckily I had 11.25 galllons of wort at the end of the boil since we were concerned with this happening and adjusted the session for this.
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augiedoggy
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My hop filter after use... still way more hops left in the BK
![IMG_20180101_161049944[1].jpg](https://cdn.homebrewtalk.com/data/attach/492/492682-IMG-20180101-161049944-1-.jpg "IMG_20180101_161049944[1].jpg")
Interesting info on the mashout. You had a net efficiency gain due to the increased gravity of course. Your efficiencies are already super high - are these mash efficiencies or brewhouse? In any event, mashout proves to provide gains. The value of the time burn is of course a personal decision.
I think your braided filter in the MT has a lot to do with your efficiency too. I personally believe a single drain point under the FB decreases efficiency.
I think your braided filter in the MT has a lot to do with your efficiency too. I personally believe a single drain point under the FB decreases efficiency.
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augiedoggy
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Brewhouse efficiency. My mash efficiencies are usually crazy high also but I'd have to check beersmith.
Nice!
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augiedoggy
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Yeah, I use 2 larger hop spiders for beers with more than a couple oz of hops... It just works so much better for me.
As far as the group buy, I got a bit of negative flack from folks about these elements so I Backed off.
I did provide Allen Gu's email so you can order them yourself from yuling if you like... also I know theres at least one other member here (non sponser) who purchased these from a few manufacturers in china with the intent to sell them and I believe he is one of the vendors selling them on ebay now along with the dernold tc based stainless enclosure ones with attached cords. He messaged me about it a while back after I bought mine. Not a bad gig I guess... buy them in bulk for 15-20 each and sell them for $60..
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