Extremely low brewhouse efficiency - BE Mash & Boil

[hendenburg2]

For a while now,, I've been getting extremely low brewhouse efficiency when using a Brewer's Edge Mash & Boil. When I say "low", I mean "sub 50%" efficiency. The model I have is the one before they introduced the recirculation pump.

I've been following the manufacturer's instructions to the letter.
Strike water volume = (lbs of grain) x 0.3
Heat the strike water to 162F
Add grain, stir
Set mash temp to 150F
Wait an hour.
Sparge water volume = 0.75 x strike water volume.
Batch sparge at 168F (batch sparge process usually takes 45 minutes or so)

Iodine tests have always indicated full conversion. Although, full disclosure: I am partially colorblind, so it's possible I'm reading them wrong. But I try to compensate for this by running an iodine test on the wort a few minutes after dough-in and keeping it as a direct visual reference to compare later tests to.

But despite this, my wort OG almost always ends up below 1.04 on recipes *should* be ending up at 1.07 with a 70% efficiency

I've tried rigging up a mash recirculation system, but it doesn't seem to help much, or if it does, not reliably.


Has anyone else using an all-in-one electric system also had efficiency problems, or (hopefully), a way to solve them?

 

[McKnuckle]

Can you give an example with a specific weight of grain and water volumes? (the actual grain bill would be great)

A one-size-fits-all instruction like that is not going to work optimally in some (many) situations. This being said, grain crush is nearly always the first factor in achieving solid efficiency. You can find 100 threads on HBT with the same question and that is nearly always the first answer.

Other than that, focusing on brewhouse efficiency means you are also taking into account all volume losses along the way - other than evaporation - from strike to fermenter. Some of that is in your control to minimize, e.g. tipping a vessel to recover as much wort as possible.

 

[hendenburg2]

Here's the most recent grain bill:

Roggenbier:
7 lbs rye
3 lbs pilsner 2-row
3 lbs marris otter
6 oz each Carafa I, C120, and Munich
4.2 gallons strike water, 3.1 gallons sparge.

Resulting pre-boil volume: ~6 gallons.
BS predicted OG at 70% efficiency: 1.069
Measured OG in fermenter: 1.036
Measured efficiency: 36%



I'm not sure if it really is crush size. The LHBS I buy my ingredients from is also a brewery, and owner uses the exact same mill for customer's grains as he uses for the brewery's beers.

And I do recover as much wort from the kettle as possible via tilting it over. There's usually only a pint or two left over in the bottom, but even then, it doesn't really matter, since I boil down to final volume, instead of adding water up.

 

[McKnuckle]

This is a tough one, I'll admit, as the OG is epically low. It can only mean that you are not converting in the mash. Have you experienced this with barley-only grain bills? Rye grains are small and it's at least possible that they weren't crushed, not sure if you inspected that. It's nearly 50% of the grain bill.

Very badly out of range mash pH is at least a possibility as well, although again, these are dramatic results. Are you experienced with brewing in general, and have you used this water successfully with other systems?

Otherwise I am scratching my head a bit.

 

[hendenburg2]

So to answer your questions in the order that you mentioned:

1) Yes, this happens with barley-only grain bills too.
2) Can't remember checking if the rye was properly crushed or not, but again, it happens with barley-only too
3) I usually use pH stabilizer, although it's possible that I forgot to add it this time. I don't usually check pH (colorblindness and all). But again, it doesn't seem to correlate with low efficiency.
4) I've been brewing for 10 years next month. Two and a half years ago I switched from partial mash to all-grain BIAB with an immersion circulator. Last year I swapped over to the Mash & Boil because my apartment has a glass-top electric stove that struggled boiling 5+ gallons. I did have a few issues with BIAB efficiency until I started getting the grain double-milled, then it was fine.
5) The water that I use is store-bought filtered water (Tap water in my area is very hard and chlorine-treated). I've been buying the same brand for the same store for 3.5 years.

 

[McKnuckle]

pH certainly does correlate with efficiency, especially if the pH is too high. This can happen if your water has high residual alkalinity and your grain bill includes mostly pale malts. Have you brewed any dark beers, and if so, did they do a little better in terms of gravity? The 5.2 product is largely viewed as bogus, BTW, but let's not go there since it seems unrelated.

I am grasping at straws a bit, as you've been brewing for 10 years (!) and using the same water for a long time. So really the question goes back to you: What is different with your Mash & Boil process vs. the all-grain system you used before that? (Which I assume got you better efficiency?)

I would try a very simple, small batch (1-2.5 gallons) with the same exact crush and water, without the M&B, and see how you perform. Remove variables from the mix so you can rule things out.

 

[hendenburg2]

Sorry, when I said "doesn't seem to correlate", what I meant was, "whether or not I use mash pH stabilizer doesn't seem to correlate with higher or lower efficiency".

As for dark beers, that rye was pretty dark, close to a brown ale in color. But generally speaking, I stick to pales and ambers. My next batch is going to be a porter, though.

As for then versus now, the previous process was the no-sparge BIAB method using a sous vide stick to maintain temperature. There's obviously a few differences, such as the M&B system only heating from the bottom, but yeah, I guess I could try mini batches to see...

 

[Snuffy]

The basic M&B makes you work your butt off stirring and vorlauf-ing to get decent efficiency, but it can be done. Look around and you will find the threads where this has been covered before. It's a combination of proper grind, arm sweat and sparge to get it right with a grain bill over 13 lbs in a unit that is max 16lb.

 

[stealthfixr]

I have a self-built eRIMS BIAB that I mash with in a Bayou classic 10 gallon kettle. Years ago, my first few brews were in the middle 60s mash efficiency wise, but has since grown to the middle 70s. I attribute this to a few changes (some intentional, some realized afterwards) in no particular order:

- Milling--I bought a new Kegco, 3-roller mill that not only makes this whole process quicker and easier, but every batch since starting to use it has had higher efficiency. I run each grain bill through twice with the same roller distance settings (I never change them). I think milling for a 3-vessel setup (or a professional brewery using traditional methods) might be more forgiving than BIAB needs that need a tighter grind.

- Mash duration & Mash Out--I can tell the difference between a 45-60 minute mash and 90+ minutes in efficiency--at least a couple points gained in a longer mash duration. My normal mash now is 90 minutes. And, hitting 168F for Mash Out (all the way through the grain bed) seems to be a critical step as well.

- pH control--I used to use 5.2 mash stabilizer for pH control and was seeing right at 70% efficiency. Since switching to RO water, building up water profiles and controlling pH with phosphoric acid, it's now in the middle 70s. Using the acid carefully, I can easily hit ~ 5.2 ph in the mash--add a little at a time until you get more repeatable.

Of all the AIO devices out there, or most BIAB, I think the potential efficiency is all about the same, equipment/process wise. I think the potential improvements are in the above areas. I am also struggling with buying a new, expensive electric mashing system (Brewtools B40) because I think the more inexpensive ones (Brewzilla 65L) may do just as good of a job with less bling and a while lot less $$$.

That all said, we're mostly talking about the amount of grain being used. As long as you have dependable & repeatable results, just use the amount of grain you need to hit the right OG--who cares about efficiency? I'd worry more about factors that matter in the results, like controlling fermentation temps, proper yeast starters, hitting & holding the right mash temps (i.e. not wildly off temp wise), and solid sanitization practices, just to name a few from my perspective. YMMV.

 

[hendenburg2]

The basic M&B makes you work your butt off stirring and vorlauf-ing to get decent efficiency, but it can be done. Look around and you will find the threads where this has been covered before. It's a combination of proper grind, arm sweat and sparge to get it right with a grain bill over 13 lbs in a unit that is max 16lb.

Odd.. I was told that you don't want to stir the grain bed, because otherwise the sparge can go too quickly. I have a 5 gpm pump that I've tried using for recirculating during the mash and always use for wort chilling, I guess I can give that a try.

 

[hendenburg2]

- Mash duration & Mash Out--I can tell the difference between a 45-60 minute mash and 90+ minutes in efficiency--at least a couple points gained in a longer mash duration. My normal mash now is 90 minutes. And, hitting 168F for Mash Out (all the way through the grain bed) seems to be a critical step as well.

Hmmm... I'll have to start adding an extra half an hour to the mash time. I have tried using the M&B to raise the temp for mash out, but it seems like it takes an extremely long time (30+ minutes), even while recirculating.

That all said, we're mostly talking about the amount of grain being used. As long as you have dependable & repeatable results, just use the amount of grain you need to hit the right OG--who cares about efficiency? I'd worry more about factors that matter in the results, like controlling fermentation temps, proper yeast starters, hitting & holding the right mash temps (i.e. not wildly off temp wise), and solid sanitization practices, just to name a few from my perspective. YMMV.

The problem with "just use the amount of grain you need" is that at the efficiency numbers I've been using, I'd need to be starting with 20lbs of grain or more, far more than the unit can hold in the first place.

 

[Coastalbrew]

Ph stabilizer had been proven ineffective. You should instead be testing your water with the appropriate salts, etc to achieve the desired ph for each batch you brew. I suggest using brun'water or similar program for this purpose.

I have the same version M&B as you and have been getting efficiencies in the low to mid 80's on all my recent batches. There are several things that may help you. Grain crush, go back to double milking your grain. Ph. I suggest stirring your grain bed every 15 minutes or so during the mash. Check the cabinets in your hydrometer and/or the calculation of your refractometer reading. You say you batch sparge, what exactly is your process? It could be your leaving sugar in the mash.

 

[Beenym88]

That really is extremely low efficiency. Do you ever use a separate thermometer to check the temp? I have a mash and boil and the temp is inaccurate i have to set the temp at 156 to get 152.

 

[hendenburg2]

That really is extremely low efficiency. Do you ever use a separate thermometer to check the temp? I have a mash and boil and the temp is inaccurate i have to set the temp at 156 to get 152.

Yeah, I use a long-stemmed analog thermometer (~10" long) to test the grain bed temp. The very center is always below temp, but get ~1-2" out from center and it's usually right on target.

 

[hendenburg2]

Ph stabilizer had been proven ineffective. You should instead be testing your water with the appropriate salts, etc to achieve the desired ph for each batch you brew. I suggest using brun'water or similar program for this purpose.

I have the same version M&B as you and have been getting efficiencies in the low to mid 80's on all my recent batches. There are several things that may help you. Grain crush, go back to double milking your grain. Ph. I suggest stirring your grain bed every 15 minutes or so during the mash. Check the cabinets in your hydrometer and/or the calculation of your refractometer reading. You say you batch sparge, what exactly is your process? It could be your leaving sugar in the mash.

What do you mean by the cabinets in my hydrometer?

As for batch sparging, my process is this:
1) Lift up the grain sleeve
2) Drain off and pour over/recirculate about a gallon of wort
3) Working in 2L batches (the size of my temp-controlled electric kettle), pour 170F water over the grains. Between batch size and the time it takes to heat up each batch, the process is about 30 minutes.

 

[day_trippr]

wrt the "45 minutes" to conduct a batch sparge - are you flow-rate limited to that extent, or are you confusing the batch sparge technique with fly sparging?
The former shouldn't take more than the time to add the sparge liquor, give the mash a good stir, then start draining immediately at a rate that won't lock up the bed. That should be at a hella high rate than when I'm fly sparging for a 14 gallon pre-boil at a quart a minute...

[edit] Are you draining the whole first runnings prior to your "batch sparge"? I'm confused about the previous post...

Cheers!

 

[Snuffy]

Odd.. I was told that you don't want to stir the grain bed, because otherwise the sparge can go too quickly. I have a 5 gpm pump that I've tried using for recirculating during the mash and always use for wort chilling, I guess I can give that a try.

Seriously? Regular stirring and pouring hot wort over the grainbed is the only way you’re gonna distribute the heat evenly to the top of the mash in a unit w/o a pump. I brewed with one for about two years pretty successfully. Try stirring and Vorlaufing at 15 min intervals and at the end and then sparge.

 

[hendenburg2]

wrt the "45 minutes" to conduct a batch sparge - are you flow-rate limited to that extent, or are you confusing the batch sparge technique with fly sparging?
The former shouldn't take more than the time to add the sparge liquor, give the mash a good stir, then start draining immediately at a rate that won't lock up the bed. That should be at a hella high rate than when I'm fly sparging for a 14 gallon pre-boil at a quart a minute...

[edit] Are you draining the whole first runnings prior to your "batch sparge"? I'm confused about the previous post...

Cheers!

Well, that was the advice of my LHBS owner who uses an all-in-one to do the test batches for his brewery. The way these all-in-ones work is they have an inner sleeve that holds the grain. To lauter, you lift the sleeve up and turn it 45 degrees, since there are posts that support the weight of the grain sleeve. Gravity allows the wort to drain out the bottom. The only way to affect flow rate in this system is by how the grains settle or adding rice hulls.

So... with that said.... The advice I was given was that it should take ~30-45 minutes from lifting the sleeve out to the last of the sparge water lautering out. If the sparge water lauters out quickly, it wouldn't be in contact with the grain for long enough to really pick up the sugars. Also, that I should be adding sparge water when the top of the grain bed is no longer submerged.

 

[hendenburg2]

Seriously? Regular stirring and pouring hot wort over the grainbed is the only way you’re gonna distribute the heat evenly to the top of the mash in a unit w/o a pump. I brewed with one for about two years pretty successfully. Try stirring and Vorlaufing at 15 min intervals and at the end and then sparge.

Would your stirring advice still stand if I were to use a recirculation pump?

 

[Coastalbrew]

What do you mean by the cabinets in my hydrometer?

As for batch sparging, my process is this:
1) Lift up the grain sleeve
2) Drain off and pour over/recirculate about a gallon of wort
3) Working in 2L batches (the size of my temp-controlled electric kettle), pour 170F water over the grains. Between batch size and the time it takes to heat up each batch, the process is about 30 minutes.

Sorry that should have been calibrate your hydrometer.

Your sparge prices is basically the same as mine. I great all the water at once and pour it over .5G at a time and it takes about an hour to run 2G through the grain bed.

Something else to try is increasing your strike water volume. I'm typically using 1.6-1.75 qt/#.

 

[McKnuckle]

I just want to say that, even though it's easy to suggest tweaks in the OP's sparge and lauter techniques, his idiosyncrasies are not going to cause a dramatically poor extraction rate such as has been reported.

Recirculating is like continuous vorlauf; if distributed relatively evenly over and through the grain bed, you should not need to stir anything. In fact, doing so would disturb the grain bed and reverse the wort clarification that occurs during the mash. So... I wouldn't do that if recirculating.

Something more fundamental is happening here. I also suspect, as someone has mentioned, that you're at the practical limits of the machine's grain capacity, and that might have a disproportionately negative effect on its efficiency.

 

[hendenburg2]

Sorry that should have been calibrate your hydrometer.

Your sparge prices is basically the same as mine. I great all the water at once and pour it over .5G at a time and it takes about an hour to run 2G through the grain bed.

Something else to try is increasing your strike water volume. I'm typically using 1.6-1.75 qt/#.

I've tried using my SV stick before to heat all of the sparge water at once, but that's caused me problems when I'm trying to hold a 5 gallon pot full of 3 gallons of water and pour it out half a gallon at a time. The M&B instructions are that your sparge volume should be 70% of the strike volume, which comes out to about 1 quart per #.

 

[Coastalbrew]

Well, that was the advice of my LHBS owner who uses an all-in-one to do the test batches for his brewery. The way these all-in-ones work is they have an inner sleeve that holds the grain. To lauter, you lift the sleeve up and turn it 45 degrees, since there are posts that support the weight of the grain sleeve. Gravity allows the wort to drain out the bottom. The only way to affect flow rate in this system is by how the grains settle or adding rice hulls.

So... with that said.... The advice I was given was that it should take ~30-45 minutes from lifting the sleeve out to the last of the sparge water lautering out. If the sparge water lauters out quickly, it wouldn't be in contact with the grain for long enough to really pick up the sugars. Also, that I should be adding sparge water when the top of the grain bed is no longer submerged.

You should not be tilting the mash pipe. The mash pipe should be vertical during the vorlauf and sparge so that the liquid is in contact with all the grain. If you're tilting the pipe the liquid is just running down the bottom of the pipe and not running through the grain bed.

 

[Coastalbrew]

I've tried using my SV stick before to heat all of the sparge water at once, but that's caused me problems when I'm trying to hold a 5 gallon pot full of 3 gallons of water and pour it out half a gallon at a time. The M&B instructions are that your sparge volume should be 70% of the strike volume, which comes out to about 1 quart per #.

That's true that their instructions say that, but the strike water and sparge water volume depends on the batch size and the amount of grain. I prefer a thinner mash and have found greater efficiency with that in my own M&B which is why I advocated for the increased strike water volume, and the 2G sparge is just what is typical for my 3.25-4G brews.

 

[hendenburg2]

You should not be tilting the mash pipe. The mash pipe should be vertical during the vorlauf and sparge so that the liquid is in contact with all the grain. If you're tilting the pipe the liquid is just running down the bottom of the pipe and not running through the grain bed.

This model doesn't have a mash pipe.

 

[Coastalbrew]

In your earlier post you say:

they have an inner sleeve that holds the grain. To lauter, you lift the sleeve up and turn it 45 degrees, since there are posts that support the weight of the grain sleeve. Gravity allows the wort to drain out the bottom.

That inner sleeve is what I call the mash pipe. If you are tilting that during your vorlauf or sparge there's no way the grain is being rinsed effectively. Try your next batch with the sleeve left in the full upright position throughout both the vorlauf and sparge and I'll bet you see a huge jump in your efficiency.

 

[hendenburg2]

In your earlier post you say:

That inner sleeve is what I call the mash pipe. If you are tilting that during your vorlauf or sparge there's no way the grain is being rinsed effectively. Try your next batch with the sleeve left in the full upright position throughout both the vorlauf and sparge and I'll bet you see a huge jump in your efficiency.

No, some all-in-one systems actually have a pipe that goes up through the center of the grain sleeve, which is what confused me. And by "turning", I mean "rotating around the vertical axis".

 

[Snuffy]

Would your stirring advice still stand if I were to use a recirculation pump?

May not be necessary if you are getting a good evenly distributed flow over the grain bed. Grainfather uses a perforated top plate with center overflow pipe and a valve for flow control. You couldn’t stir theirs if you wanted to. Without that setup I think a pump could cause uneven channeling of wort thru the grain unless you moved the outflow around manually. if I added a pump to my M&B, I’d still stir and it would just replace the vorlauf. Trick would be adjusting flow to keep from pumping the unit dry under the sleeve. Might need rice hulls to improve down flow depending on the mash.
My best results with the M&B were with grain bills 12 lbs or less. Largest was 14 and it was work.

 

[sryan]

I had the same low efficiency issues. Some of my problem was that I was doing calcs for bh efficiency with BeerSmith and trying to do 2.5 g batches. There’s a lot of loss from trub and fermenter loss that makes it hard to get good BH efficiency.

I’ve increased my mash efficiency by a ton by milling twice at .30 gap, add rice hulls, getting proper acid additions for ph, and most importantly stir your mash. That was the biggest difference.

I have to say though that I am considering moving to a cooler mash tun because the non recirculating MB is kind of a pain. I have to stir constantly and recirculate to get my temps right and they still get jacked up all the time.

 

[McKnuckle]

Brewhouse efficiency includes all extraction and losses on the hot side, terminating with wort into the fermenter. Fermenter loss when packaging is not included. Just wanted to make that point.

I've said this already, but I'd expect poor mash efficiency to be 50-60%, not 30 something. But all we can do is advise what we think are best practices to optimize brewing on this kind of system, and see if putting them all together achieves a more favorable result.

 

[jerrylotto]

I don't usually check pH (colorblindness and all).

Purchasing inexpensive pH meter. Color blindness shouldn't come into the equation if you're measuring with a meter and colormetric methods rarely have enough accuracy for anything meaningful.

 

[dwightr8]

Are you sure your volumes are right? The marks in the kettle can be off by quite a bit. See this thread: Mash and Boil *actual* boil volume ?
I've got a Digiboil and I know mine are off a bit. I always fill from gallon jugs which I have calibrated by weight. 1 gal of water weighs 8.33 lbs at room temp (70F). I'm sure this isn't your whole problem but it could be a contributing factor.

 

[hendenburg2]

May not be necessary if you are getting a good evenly distributed flow over the grain bed. Grainfather uses a perforated top plate with center overflow pipe and a valve for flow control. You couldn’t stir theirs if you wanted to. Without that setup I think a pump could cause uneven channeling of wort thru the grain unless you moved the outflow around manually. if I added a pump to my M&B, I’d still stir and it would just replace the vorlauf. Trick would be adjusting flow to keep from pumping the unit dry under the sleeve. Might need rice hulls to improve down flow depending on the mash.
My best results with the M&B were with grain bills 12 lbs or less. Largest was 14 and it was work.

With recirculation setup, I make sure that the top of the grain in the sleeve is *slightly* submerged, so in theory the wort is being evenly distributed. Tomorrow is my brew day, so I'll attach pictures.

 

[hendenburg2]

Are you sure your volumes are right? The marks in the kettle can be off by quite a bit. See this thread: Mash and Boil *actual* boil volume ?
I've got a Digiboil and I know mine are off a bit. I always fill from gallon jugs which I have calibrated by weight. 1 gal of water weighs 8.33 lbs at room temp (70F). I'm sure this isn't your whole problem but it could be a contributing factor.

The only place where the M&B determines my volumes is after sparging. I buy water in 1 & 2.5 gallon containers, and my electric kettle has volume markings in liters. My 5 and 6 gallon brew kettles also have volume markings on them.

 

[Alex4mula]

I bet your main problem is in the crush. I mash thin at 1.6 and crush my grains. Conversion is 89 to 99%. Brew house high 70s. Need to squeeze grains at end of sparge. You will get there. Go search the M&B forum for tips.

 

[hendenburg2]

Hey all. Brew day first update:

Here's the grain bill I'm using today:
8 lbs US 2-row
1lb 3 oz C20
6 oz black malt
4 oz Munich II
3 oz US chocolate

Strike water volume: 3.5 gal
Strike water temp: 162F
Mash temp: 156F
Mash out temp: 168F
Total mash time: 95 minutes
Pre-sparge gravity: 1.08

Setup pic:

 

[hendenburg2]

Update 2:

Sparge is done.

Pre-boil volume: 6.5 gallons
Pre-boil gravity: 1.04

Target final volume: 5.25 gallons
Estimated post-boil OG: 1.05
Estimated BH efficiency: 73%

 

[Coastalbrew]

Hope you enjoy your brew day!

Curious if you actually hit your target mash temp with that strike temp? My M&B has about a 15* drop (on a 5G batch) from strike temp to mash temp when I add the grains. So if I want a mash temp of 156* I need a strike temp of 171*.

Cheers!

 

[hendenburg2]

My M&B only dropped about 8F. From 162 to 154, but this batch only had 10lbs of grain.

However, here's the real reason I suspect for the lower temp drop:
The M&B's temp sensor is right at the bottom, close to the heating element. This would mean that it's not measuring the bulk volume of the strike water, just the very bottom of it. However, I ran the recirculation pump while heating my strike water. This meant that my strike water was at a more uniform temperature.

Also, I did notice that my temp sensor reads a bit off - wort starts boiling at 215F (I'm at sea level)

 

[Alex4mula]

Hope you enjoy your brew day!

Curious if you actually hit your target mash temp with that strike temp? My M&B has about a 15* drop (on a 5G batch) from strike temp to mash temp when I add the grains. So if I want a mash temp of 156* I need a strike temp of 171*.

Cheers!

Grain temp also has to do on this. My basement where grains are is at 63-64°F all year round. I set the M&B to 160° and my strike water gets to 166°F. After pouring grains, they end up around 152°F all the time. But I mash thin at 1.6 so maybe that has some impact too. Once the user gets to know all these variables your process will get more predictable. It takes some time.