Extract or All Grain?

[PackerfaninSanDiego]

What are the pros and cons between the two? I'm on my second batch of extract kit....and it seems like a very simple process....I see most of you do All Grain. That being said if I were to go AG, am I going to need additional equipment?

 

[unionrdr]

I wouldn't think that "most of us do AG". Many extract with specialty grain brewers,kit-n-kilo brewers too. Many partial mash brewers. Then those that do some combination of AG,PM,& AE (my new letter designation idea for All Extract I came up with the other day on here).
Sometimes you have time for mashing,other days you don't. Still others,like me,are moving up at our own pace.
So I blieve it's a combination of brewing styles we all do.
But you'll need a bigger BK,& some kind of mash tun vessel mainly. Then a kettle for heating water in for sparging,etc.

 

[bobbrews]

If you have to ask this question, the answer is always Partial Mash

Full volume boil of course!

 

[unionrdr]

I did partial boil BIAB for my 1st PM & it worked out great. Just used a cake cooling rack in the bottom of my 5G BK. 3 gallon SS stock pot to heat sparge water. No extra equipment needed.

 

[bell0347]

Buy and read "How to Brew" or "The Complete Joy of Homebrewing". Best analogy I can come up with is it's like baking a cake. Extract is like buying a box at the store and following the directions on back. You'll end up with a cake that will probably be pretty good and enjoyable but a lot of times maybe lacking something. All grain is like baking from scratch. You have complete control over every ingredient and aspect. It's more involved and there's more that can go wrong but the potential is there to make something truly great and all your own.

 

[unionrdr]

But with so many new extracts coming out nowadays,that gap is closing. Plus as a brewer progresses & gets better at their craft,extract brews can be really good & win medals. Or at least compare just as well to AG beers to friends,club members,whoever. Good beer is good beer,regardless of how it's made.

 

[JordanThomas]

This again?

Yes, you will need additional equipment to brew all-grain.

All-Grain:

Pros: Cheaper per batch cost, more fun (IMO), flexibility of recipes
Cons: Takes longer on brewday, more upfront cost, more cleanup

Extract:

Basically all of the oppposites as all-grain.

 

[mgortel]

Pro's:
1) You have an unlimited number of variables to play with for your beer recipes. i.e. you can tweak the flavor with small adjustments to grain bill, you can modify the amount of fermentable versus unfermentable sugars by adjusting mash temperature, etc.

2) Less expensive for materials per batch

3) Brew session takes longer....so more time to drink beer while brewing

4) You will be doing a full boil so better hop utilization

Con's:
1) Need more equipment (mash tun, stand)

2) Need bigger brew pot than for extract (need a 10 gallon brew pot for 5.5 gal batches...though you might want to just get a 15 gallon in case you ever want to do 10-11 lb batches )

3) Inconsistency in OG depending on how well your mash and sparge go ...until you fine tune your process (more in the learning stages of all grain during your learning curve)

The following, depending on your own attitude, could be pro or con:
1) Need to do some learning about mashing, sparging,and you will should get a brewing software program like Beersmith ($20) etc....(I love this stuff so this is a Pro to me)

2) More planning required before brewing (Pro to me....cause it is part of the fun)


I am sure I missed some points...but others can chime in.

Bottom line....if you really enjoy extract brewing....and want to have more control over process and have a reason to spend more time preparing to brew as well as brewing....then you should start doing all grain! (And....you can still do extract brewing when you want!)

 

[Golddiggie]

There are different ways to do either PM or AG brewjng. Look st BiaB to see if you can handle it without additional gear. Then get what makes it easier for you.

Personally I did three extract (with specialty grains) then one partial mash (BiaB) before going all grain. I love the recipe control you get with all grain that you simply can't get with "all extract". I wouldn't brew with just extract, you should at least have some specialty/steeping grains in there.

 

[RIC0]

Time for a dummy to chime in here.

I did kit brewing some 16 years ago and quit. 2 Months ago I got back into it and for me it's extract kits for now.

What I do is find a kit I want and figure out I'm going to make it better as in adding my own stuff.

Examples are coffee in my porter, a little whiskey in my redned redale, coconut in my imperial stout, and recently spices in my German Ale.

I'm still new and will moving on to partial mash after I get 6 extract kits under my belt. Will I never do a kit again, hell yeah I will. It's easy and takes probably half the time, which is something I dont' have much of.

So doing just a kit seems a little boring to me but still makes good beer. 16 years ago there was not near the amount of kits that there are today so for what it's worth I think it has to do with time and how deep do you want to get into brewing beer. I'll go to all grain sometime next year but if it seems that I'm making my home brew just a little better than an extract I'll go back to extract but we will see. I forsee doing extract, partial and all grain depending on my time.

 

[unionrdr]

I just downloaded beersmith2 a couple days ago,& it's now $28. Lots to learn setting it up though. But it can do partial boil extracts as well as PM & AG. it can also upload a pic of a glass of your beer to go with the recipe. Much more.
I think I'll just brew whatever style suits the brew I have a taste for atm. The more you learn,the better they'll be regardless.

 

[kh54s10]

All extract is simplest, sometimes it doesn't even get boiled

Extract with specialty grains adds some flavors and gives you a little control.

Partial mash is a cross between extract and all grain. It uses less equipment than all grain

All grain has many variations:
BIAB is brew in a bag. This requires the least equipment and gives a lot of control over the brew

The rest of the all grain styles require more equipment and take longer to do but give you the most control over the product.

It is advisable but not necessary to start with extract kits with or without steeping grains until you get the feel for the process and learn more about brewing. You can then make an educated decision about the style of brewing you want to do. This may keep you from buying equipment that you will not need in the end.

Happy brewing.

 

[unionrdr]

Biab works for partial mash,partial boil too. My cascade pale came out really good that way. Yet another variation...

 

[Hockeyhunter99]

Biggest complaint about AG is the time. it takes me 2-3 hours to do a extract with steeping grains. but an AG takes 3-6 hours depending on size and complexity. i started with kits, moved to making my own extract recipes, to partial mash, to AG. i prefer steeping grains in extract even though i have all the equipment for doing an AG if i want. It is a matter of convenience. take the time to try AG and see for yourself. it will just cost more money and time.

 

[zeg]

If you don't have someone experienced to help you through the first couple times, I strongly recommend starting with extract. Not everyone will agree, but it's the route I took, and it worked very well.

Here's how I did it (first brew was last January). First, during the couple months before I got my equipment, I read Papazian's book and read as many online resources as I could. I tried to get an idea of what the process was like, etc. It's hard to get a complete picture that way, but you can get some idea. The hardest part, really, was putting together a coherent plan---there are enough variations that you can get a little mixed up taking steps from different sources and trying to stick them together. Just be prepared to be flexible on your first time through, you will inevitably develop your own procedures.

For the first one, I went with all extract and steeping grains. I followed Papazian's process for the most part, and didn't worry too much about exact temperatures or volumes. I steeped by throwing the grains in the brew kettle while I brought it up toward boiling and fished them out around 160°. I started with a simple bitter recipe and kept it as close to RDWHA(Commercial)B as I could.

Wait until you have a full day to spend on this and start on the early side---you do not want to rush while you're still learning the basics of sanitation, etc. That way, for example, if you think you may have contaminated something, you won't feel too rushed to stop, step back, resanitize, and continue.

The next time around was a batch of mead, which is different enough I won't go into it here. It was useful, though, because it didn't involve the complications of a boil and let me focus on sanitation and other parts of the process.

Then I did a second extract+steeping grains batch. On this one, though, I set a specific target for the steeping temperature and tried to hit it. I kept notes on how I did, etc. Since it was just steeping, there was basically no penalty for missing by even a large factor, but it was practice for doing a mash. From my notes on the first batch, I cleaned up some parts of the procedure that had gone slowly.

From there, I jumped into BIAB partial mashing. It was only a small step from the steeping since I'd already tried controlling the temperatures, and the impact of low efficiency was limited because of all the extract. It also didn't require any extra equipment (except a grain bag, I guess). On this one, I also used liquid yeast with a starter and then harvested it at the end and reused it for my next batch.

After this, I've stuck with PM because I don't have the space or budget to expand for now. I probably will eventually, but there's no rush. Anyway, I think this worked really well for me. I was learning on my own from books and teh Intert00bs, so gradually working in more complexity was, I think, key to starting with a string of successful batches. I think extract is a fantastic way to learn the processes while minimizing the risks of a discouraging abject failure. Your first batch isn't going to be stellar anyway, but it's nice to keep it drinkable!

 

[unionrdr]

Or get it right enough the first time where mistakes age out. Pretty good progress description zeg. Just about the way it was for me as well. Just ordered the grains for my next PM batch. Did one pm kit,being glad midwest lists what grains & extract,& how much of each. It help a lot in my opinion when you want to branch out with flavors you liked in extract brews. It cost me only $8.42 for 5lbs of grains,& I can go to the LHBS for yeast & 3lb bag of plain light DME. All said,about $25.17 for 5G of ale.
Where the cascade pale was amber/orange,with good malt to hop balance,the malt was a littl tad light compared to my extract pales. So I changed up 2 of the grains for more English sort of flavor & amber/copper color. That's the exciting part of PM to me. You have the extract to get the OG,with the grains to play around with flavors to accentuate your favorite flavors from AE to PM. *The other day,I came up with "AE" for All Extract. Shorter & better sounding I think... TGIF!

 

[jerrodm]

take the time to try AG and see for yourself. it will just cost more money and time.

Not to be a jerk about this, but I feel compelled to point out that the part about AG costing more is just not true. The upfront costs for a very basic AG setup (think BIAB) are only slightly higher than for an extract setup--basically the only extra things you need to buy are a hydrometer and a BIAB bag. And the marginal costs are so much lower than for extract. Put it this way: my LHBS sells plain DME for $15.50 for 3 lbs. for the cheapest kind of DME (what I use in my starters). The specialty stuff is more. The same store sells malt for between $1.80 to $2.30 per lb. for most types, with substantial discounts from that price if you buy full sacks.

Now, if you're making, say, a 1.054 OG stout (like this one here), you would need to buy 7 lbs of DME plus 1 lb. of specialty grains to do it with extract--that would run you about $38 before tax ($2.30 for the specialty grains and about $35 for the extract). Of course that doesn't include the hops or yeast or anything else, meaning you're probably well over $50 for 5 gallons of beer by the time you get everything. But since all that will be the same whether you do AG or extract, we'll ignore those costs.

If, instead, you decide to make a similar AG recipe with the same OG (like this one), you need 8 lbs. of grain, which works out to about $18.40.

So making basically the same beer, AG will cut the cost of your grain bill by over half ($18 vs. $38). Even if you get crappy efficiency, you're still spending maybe a buck or two extra for some more grains.

Now, I know, many AG brewers buy thousands of dollars worth of equipment, which negates the savings associated with brewing AG. But that's a little beside the point, because you don't NEED that stuff, it's just extras. Even with a basic full AG setup (pot, cooler, spigot, braid) you can brew virtually anything that can be done with the more advanced systems, and you're spending maybe $150 more over an extract setup. How many batches before you recoup those additional costs when your marginal cost is $20 less per batch? Not very many.

I'm not arguing against extract brewing here--I did it for several years before I switched to AG, and loved the beers I made with it. And today, the variety argument for AG has gotten markedly less compelling IMO, since there's so much more variation in extract available than when I started brewing. But for cost, AG has extract beat hands-down. How much equipment you choose to brew with is more a philosophical choice than anything else, but AG doesn't have to be more expensive and can actually be MUCH cheaper than extract.

Cheers

 

[unionrdr]

True enough. My extract recipies cost about $35 dollars for a 6 gallon batch. PM cost me about $25 for 5G. Same OG range too. It takes a little more time for pm,but the flavor & balance is worth it. After comparing the two with my son over Thanksgiving,We agree it's not so much that pm/ag is fresher...perhaps crisper & good balance/definition of flavors & aromas. That's about as close as I can describe it atm.
I will say pm is getting to be interesting & fun to experiment with to try & match flavor complexities between the two as I brew them.

 

[PackerfaninSanDiego]

Thanks for all the lengthy replies. I think for now I'll stay with the extract kits. I do have a bud(BMC) brew making consultant and he said I would need a bigger pot if I went to all grain which is not a big deal and the extra time needed is also no big deal. I guess one step at a time until I get the extra mastered.

 

[zeg]

you would need to buy 7 lbs of DME plus 1 lb. of specialty grains to do it with extract--that would run you about $38 before tax ($2.30 for the specialty grains and about $35 for the extract).
[...]
If, instead, you decide to make a similar AG recipe with the same OG (like this one), you need 8 lbs. of grain, which works out to about $18.40.

Be fair, though. First, you'll use about the same specialty grains either way, so it's really just the base malt/extract that needs to be compared.

DME is 45 ppg, versus malt at 36 ppg if you get it from grain, minus your efficiency. Assuming 70%, that means you get about 24 ppg out of it, so you need closer to 12 pounds of grain to hit the same OG. For me, 7 pounds of DME would cost $28, versus 12 pounds of domestic 2-row which would cost about $16. It's still cheaper to do the all-grain, but only by about $12 (and this is for a rather heavy beer---the 1.054 recipe you linked is mostly LME, but a 7 pound DME 5-gallon batch is about 1.062). The difference will be less for most beers. My typical per-batch cost is $40-$50, so it probably saves 15-25% of the total.

I think the most basic equipment cost to do all-grain would easily have been > $100 more than my PM setup. It'd take me (at least) most of a year of brewing to get near the break-even.

So, yes, eventually it'll probably be cheaper, but it's not even close to cutting your costs in half on each batch.

 

[bobbrews]

DME is 45 ppg, versus malt at 36 ppg if you get it from grain, minus your efficiency.

Not all DME is 45 ppg. Some are 43 ppg. Others are 37 ppg.

Just like all base malt is not 36 ppg. It depends on the grain, the maltster, and their processes.

 

[JR_Brewer]

I guess one step at a time until I get the extra mastered.

I think you have the right philosophy. Once you get Extract mastered, try a partial mash BIAB. You will be able to use your existing brew kettle, and the only cost will be the mesh bag. If you like Partial Mash better than extract, consider making the plunge and investing in AG equipment.

Best of luck and keep brewing!

 

[zeg]

Not all DME is 45 ppg. Some are 43 ppg. Others are 37 ppg.

Just like all base malt is not 36 ppg. It depends on the grain, the maltster, and their processes.

Sure, sure, but those are fairly typical values. The point is that DME is, in general, more potent per weight than malt and it's not affected by mashing efficiency. That fairly significantly reduces the price difference, particularly for brewers who don't get good efficiencies.

 

[bobbrews]

Sure, sure, but those are fairly typical values. The point is that DME is, in general, more potent per weight than malt and it's not affected by mashing efficiency. That fairly significantly reduces the price difference, particularly for brewers who don't get good efficiencies.

36 to 45 ppg are vastly different ranges and using 7 lbs. of these extremes will result in very different OG/FGs.

I wasn't arguing the differences of gravity points contributed as it pertains to the amount of grain or extract you use. That should be obvious.

 

[jerrodm]

Your right, I was using numbers for DME rather than LME, apologies for the mistake. By the same token the cost figures I used for grains were purposely very high--I used the price of Crystal 60L from my LHBS rather than the "cheap" price that I get base malt sacks for in order to prove a point. And I think the point remains. Let's try an example of what it would actually cost me if I wanted to generate 5 gallons of wort using two different methods, extract and AG. Both batches will have OG of 1.044 not including anything but base malt. And I'll use my own average efficiency of 75%, which is nothing too special as far as I can tell.

In order to get this with extract, I would need to purchase 5 lbs. of Briess light DME (44 ppg), which would cost $25.80 (it's $15.50 for a 3 lb. package).

Or, I could use 8 lbs of American 2-row (37 ppg), which I buy in 50 lb. bags for $54. That would cost $8.64.

Let's say I would spend $12.50 on either recipe for hops, specialty malts and yeast. That means that my total cost for ingredients would be $21 for AG and $38 for extract, which is still pretty darn close to half the cost for ingredients.

That's based on my costs--those who don't buy base malt in bulk or who don't get 75% efficiency would pay slightly more for AG. But you'd have to get pretty awful efficiency or buy really expensive grains in order for it to be close. AG is definitely cheaper.

 

[bobbrews]

Your right, I was using numbers for DME rather than LME.

LME can also have very varied ppg ratings depending on the maltster.

Again, wasn't arguing the price differences either. Just your conclusion that all extract is rated 44/45 ppg... which is not true.

 

[jerrodm]

It's true, that's why I used a better, more specific example with grain and DME that I actually have.

 

[zeg]

36 to 45 ppg are vastly different ranges and using 7 lbs. of these extremes will result in very different OG/FGs.

Well, ok, but I don't really understand what you're getting at, except for the obvious point that ingredients can vary and you have to use the correct values for those ingredients. Briess Golden Light DME, which is about as common a DME as I can find, is in the ballpark of 45 ppg, and most base malts are in the ballpark of 36 ppg. For purposes of doing general comparisons, I think those are pretty reasonable numbers to use. If you happen to convert a batch that uses a very low ppg extract, then it doesn't apply.

Jerrod, I don't dispute that AG ingredients are cheaper, but based on numbers that apply to my situation (my prices were for DME in 5 pound quantities, about $4 a pound, and cheap 2-row malt in 10 pound quantities, about $1.34 a pound), I'm not going to recover costs as quickly as you estimate. The ability to buy things in bulk will bring down the AG costs, but the equipment (milling, storage, etc) to handle that will also increase the upfront costs. In the end, I think it'd take at least a couple years of brewing to make AG the more cost-effective option. Obviously, the more often you brew the faster you'll make it up.

I think the real takeaway is that it's hard to make generalizations.

 

[bobbrews]

Well, ok, but I don't really understand what you're getting at

7 lbs. of Extract with a 37 ppg rating will yield an OG / FG of roughly 1.053 / 1.013 in a 5 gallon batch.

7 lbs. of Extract with a 45 ppg rating will yield an OG / FG of roughly 1.063 / 1.016 in a 5 gallon batch.


I just didn't want you guys to confuse any new brewers. It isn't uncommon to find Extract below 45 ppg. I do not agree that the majority of extracts = 45 ppg.

This is all I was arguing... Exclusive of price and any all grain comparisons.

 

[unionrdr]

Yeah,that's true. But generally D), I save about $10...maybe $12 per batch for PM vs AE. But the AE batches are 6G vs 5G for me. But the fact of the matter,to me,is that PM has a bit crisper,more defined flavor. Dang,I have to wait till Monday for my HB to be ready,but SNPA & vodka feels good right now. AG 8is workin!