English Barleywine Recipe Critique

[frittsbier]

Recipe Type: All Grain
Yeast: Dry English Ale (WLP007)
Yeast Starter: Huuuuge
Batch Size (Gallons): 5.5
Original Gravity: 1.100
Final Gravity: 1.021
IBU: 40
Boiling Time (Minutes): 90 or 120?
Color: 20 SRM
Primary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): 31 at 67
Secondary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): 6 mo - 1 year on oak cubes

21 lbs Pale Malt, Maris Otter 92%
12.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L 3.5%
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 120L 2.5%
6.0 oz Special B 2%

1.00 oz Target (60 min) 31.0 IBU
1.00 oz Bramling Cross (20 min) 9.0 IBU

Dry English Ale (WLP007)

Age on 2 oz oak cubes

I had a barrel aged barleywine from Dry Dock a few weeks ago that was delicious and wanted to do something similar. I'm looking for a complex, very malt forward barleywine. Really want to get those dark fruit, raisin, licorice flavors to come through. I also plan on adding another level of complexity by aging the beer for 6 months - 1 year on oak cubes I've soaked in bourbon. Please provide any suggestions or critiques you have to the recipe! I have a few specific questions:

1. Is that the right amount of crystal? If I boil for 90 or 120 mins, will that create enough melanoidens and sweetness that I should reduce the amount of crystal malt used? I was also considering using an extra dark (150L) crystal in place of the crystal 120, to again contribute to those dark fruit flavors. Also have some molasses I was considering adding, but thought that might be a little overkill.

2. Any suggestions on the toast of oak? Medium toast? Dark toast? How about the type of oak? American? French?

3. Hops - I kind of wanted to get away from the standard EKG, Fuggles, etc. and try something new for a change. I feel like Bramling Cross might play nice here. Any thoughts for those who are familiar with it? Will it be masked by all the malt anyway? Is that enough to come through?

I'm open to ANY suggestions of what you would change. Thanks a ton for your time and input! Cheers!

 

[Queequeg]

I have only ever made one barley wine so take my advice in that context.

1)IMO you have too much crystal, at a SG 1.100 you will struggle to get down to 1.021 even with 007 and a 148F mash. They will be plenty of sweetness from the Maris Otter alone. Plus you only have 40 IBUs, My barley wine had 0.5Lb crystal and 95IBus and it was still to0 sweet. (finish at 1.026)

Also 120L won't give you that dried fruit / licorice flavour as much as the contential equivilants, if you are ok with using non-english malts then stick with just special b or use a blend of special B and perhaps cararoma. If authenticity is more important then use British caramel malts, I have read good things about simpsons double roast caramel malt

Sugar is a great idea

Since you are laying it down for a year, you could also use brown malt which will add a lot of complexity. It really is one of the most complex British malts and you can use it quite liberally.

2)As for oak you can buy bourbon barrel chucks on ebay, I have used them before toasted and then soaked in some wild turkey and they worked a treat.I toasted them in my oven according to this guide

http://www.brewgeeks.com/toasted-oak-cubes.html

I wanted vanilla so I went with that.

3) for hops you want something robust. I would recommend admiral, it a British hop that has a strong orange and resin flavour. I think that would go well with dark Crystal and bourbon. You also want to increase the hop dosage if you a storing for a year.

so I would go with.

21lb maris otter
8oz Simpsons Double roast crystal (or special b)
8oz brown malt
1lb Turbinado sugar (or candi syrup if you really want dried fruit)

Mash 148F

3 oz Target (60min) 93 IBU's
1oz Admiral @10 mins
1oz Admiral @K.O

 

[cyberbackpacker]

1- I think your ratio of Crystal is in range for this recipe and your desired outcomes. Personally though, I would omit the Special B and add a third Crystal malt or just drop it altogether. You could do something like 6oz each of c40, c60, and c120 instead of the listed Crystal/Special B combo you currently have. That said, some people love Special B-- so that is only a call you can make.

2. Any of those can work-- I would try maybe a medium French oak myself, since so often we are used to American Oak, it would add some different complexity.

3. I love Challenger and Styrian Goldings as deviations from typical EKG/Fuggles, but Target and Bramling Cross would be good too.

Cheers!

 

[BigEd]

Recipe Type: All Grain
Yeast: Dry English Ale (WLP007)
Yeast Starter: Huuuuge
Batch Size (Gallons): 5.5
Original Gravity: 1.100
Final Gravity: 1.021
IBU: 40
Boiling Time (Minutes): 90 or 120?
Color: 20 SRM
Primary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): 31 at 67
Secondary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): 6 mo - 1 year on oak cubes

21 lbs Pale Malt, Maris Otter 92%
12.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L 3.5%
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 120L 2.5%
6.0 oz Special B 2%

1.00 oz Target (60 min) 31.0 IBU
1.00 oz Bramling Cross (20 min) 9.0 IBU

Dry English Ale (WLP007)

Age on 2 oz oak cubes

I have a few specific questions:

1. Is that the right amount of crystal? If I boil for 90 or 120 mins, will that create enough melanoidens and sweetness that I should reduce the amount of crystal malt used? I was also considering using an extra dark (150L) crystal in place of the crystal 120, to again contribute to those dark fruit flavors. Also have some molasses I was considering adding, but thought that might be a little overkill.

2. Any suggestions on the toast of oak? Medium toast? Dark toast? How about the type of oak? American? French?

3. Hops - I kind of wanted to get away from the standard EKG, Fuggles, etc. and try something new for a change. I feel like Bramling Cross might play nice here. Any thoughts for those who are familiar with it? Will it be masked by all the malt anyway? Is that enough to come through?

I'm open to ANY suggestions of what you would change. Thanks a ton for your time and input! Cheers!

1) Agree with the general consensus so far that you have too much crystal. Beers this big are going to end up naturally sweet and end at a higher OG than you planned. I'd eliminate the dark stuff, just use a little of a nice medium (~55L) UK crystal, and do a 120 minute boil. Really nice complexities can come from a simple recipe of a big beer. Some excellent renditions of the style are made with not much other than pale malt (Thomas Hardy's Ale, for example) and do produce those flavors you are after.

2) My suggestion here is to forget about the cubes and use something like Jack Daniels barrel chips. It will take some uncertainty out of the process and you will have something with a much better surface:mass ratio than cubes as well as actual wood from the inside of a real whiskey barrel.

3) Any of the traditional type of UK hops will work. Bramling Cross should be fine. I would suggest, as has been done already, to consider adding considerably to your IBU number. Remember this is a big beer with a lot of alcohol that is also going to have a large amount of residual sweetness. I like large quantities of low alpha stuff here. Add some BC to the bittering addition and consider throwing in another middle and maybe a late addition too. The long aging needed for the beer will mellow any vegetal notes from a large quantity of hop biomass. The additional IBUs will better balance the big alcohol punch and the huge malty/sweetness of the finished beer. Sticking with the low alpha and gentle flavors of the the traditional UK varieties will still let the malt be the star of the show and will also help produce some very nice flavor subtleties.

 

[imasickboy]

Crystal percentage would be fine if you were shooting for 10 - 12 less gravity points for your OG. But targeting that high, as mentioned, will leave you with a high FG, and thus, too sweet.

IBU's, IMO, should be at least 45, minimum. Dumping in a ton of hops from 20 - 10 minutes left should do you well.

120 minute boil should be great. You want rich.

I use oak chips, but that's just what I'm comfortable with. Use whatever wood format you want, but taste frequently to find that sweet spot that says you're done.

 

[Queequeg]

If you choose to use chips you will need to take regular samples to check for extraction. Having a larger total surface area means quicker extraction and risk of too many tannins.

When I used cubes I was really impressed with the result. I ages for 2 months and the oak quality so subtle and complex.

If you are going ti store for a while I would go cubes or spirals.

 

[frittsbier]

Thank you all very much for your detailed responses. I agree with the consensus that there is too much crystal malt with a such a high estimated FG. I do want it to be a sweet barleywine, but not cloying and undrinkable.

I think I'm also going to add another 0.5 oz of Target to the bittering addition to bring the total IBUs up to around 55 or so. From my experience and research, adding a bunch of late hop additions is somewhat ineffective when aging the beer for an extended period, but maybe a few of you feel differently about that claim?

I have read good things about simpsons double roast caramel malt

Ironically last night before I read this post, I went to my LHBS last night to pick up some ingredients for a Cali Common I'm doing this weekend and happened to taste it while I was there. It was absolutely delicious and after some further research and high praise, I think it's going to fit in nicely in this recipe.

Might make a few more tweaks, but I think the recipe will look something along the lines of:

21 lb Maris Otter (96%)
10 oz English Crystal 55L (2.5%)
6 oz Simpson's Double Roasted Crystal (1.5%)

1.5 oz Target 60 min (45 IBUs)
1.0 oz Bramling Cross 20 min (10 IBUs)

Dry English Ale

OG: 1.100
FG: 1.021
ABV: ~10.5%

Think I'm still leaning towards cubes after doing a lot of reading about the differences between cubes, chips, spirals, etc. but I am still debating. Considering adding a bit of sugar to drop the FG a few more points too. We shall see.

Thanks again everyone for your thoughtful remarks! I really appreciate it and I'll report back and let everyone know how it goes! :rockin:

 

[NorthwestBrewman2013]

*Subscribed*

Barleywines have always been a huge interest. Excited to see how the process goes for you.

 

[BrewSomeMore]

I have had good success with oak cubes. I soaked 2oz of hungarian oak cubes in rum and threw them into a keg of robust porter. Let it secondary for another month and then tapped it with oak cubes still in the keg. Very nice oak flavor plus some booze from the rum. You may want to to go to 3oz of oak because it is such a big beer. Also, you could also put 2oz of Bramling Cross in 10min or below to give you a nice lemon-herbal flavor. Dry hop this mother of a beer too, it is a barleywine!

 

[JKaranka]

Thank you all very much for your detailed responses. I agree with the consensus that there is too much crystal malt with a such a high estimated FG. I do want it to be a sweet barleywine, but not cloying and undrinkable.

I think I'm also going to add another 0.5 oz of Target to the bittering addition to bring the total IBUs up to around 55 or so. From my experience and research, adding a bunch of late hop additions is somewhat ineffective when aging the beer for an extended period, but maybe a few of you feel differently about that claim?



Ironically last night before I read this post, I went to my LHBS last night to pick up some ingredients for a Cali Common I'm doing this weekend and happened to taste it while I was there. It was absolutely delicious and after some further research and high praise, I think it's going to fit in nicely in this recipe.

Might make a few more tweaks, but I think the recipe will look something along the lines of:

21 lb Maris Otter (96%)
10 oz English Crystal 55L (2.5%)
6 oz Simpson's Double Roasted Crystal (1.5%)

1.5 oz Target 60 min (45 IBUs)
1.0 oz Bramling Cross 20 min (10 IBUs)

Dry English Ale

OG: 1.100
FG: 1.021
ABV: ~10.5%

Think I'm still leaning towards cubes after doing a lot of reading about the differences between cubes, chips, spirals, etc. but I am still debating. Considering adding a bit of sugar to drop the FG a few more points too. We shall see.

Thanks again everyone for your thoughtful remarks! I really appreciate it and I'll report back and let everyone know how it goes! :rockin:

Revised recipe looks better. I'd consider replacing some of the MO for sugar. If you are concerned about the colour you could add up to 2oz Patent Malt for correction.

With hops: I'd aim at a higher IBU. Personally I would worry about using less than 75-80 predicted IBU there, and aim at 100. It's up to taste, but you might want to consider at least 60. Bramling Cross is great, and you could chuck in 2oz at 20m, and another ounce to dry hop. I'd age it for three-four months in a FV and then dry hop before bottling (just conditioning for 4 weeks in bottle before drinking). BX has that mellow Ribena and spice flavour to it which is really cool.