Electric Keggle help

[bakins]

You could build a "portable" sub-panel.

50A -> range plug + cord -> small panel box

Inside that panel box (they are cheap and you can get NEMA rated ones, or put it in a waterproof box) install a 30A GFCI breaker. The connect that to your distribution etc.

You'd even have a portable electric rig that could connect into an 30A+ electric range outlet...


BrewBeemer, please correct me if I'm wrong about this. FWIW, I did actually read the NEC (well the applicable parts of it) when I finished my basement, which included my brew rig.

To the OP, if you're at all scared about this, read more. Don't screw around with 240V until you are absolutely sure about it.

 

[conpewter]

You could build a "portable" sub-panel.

50A -> range plug + cord -> small panel box

Inside that panel box (they are cheap and you can get NEMA rated ones, or put it in a waterproof box) install a 30A GFCI breaker. The connect that to your distribution etc.

You'd even have a portable electric rig that could connect into an 30A+ electric range outlet...


BrewBeemer, please correct me if I'm wrong about this. FWIW, I did actually read the NEC (well the applicable parts of it) when I finished my basement, which included my brew rig.

To the OP, if you're at all scared about this, read more. Don't screw around with 240V until you are absolutely sure about it.

I would do the portable subpanel but with a regular 30 amp breaker. The GFCI breakers I found were more expensive than the 30 amp GFCI cord I ended up using in my system.

 

[psyber]

I would do the portable subpanel but with a regular 30 amp breaker.

Wouldn't this greatly increase the risk of electrocution? That is, if current starts flowing anywhere other than back to the source (e.g. the keg), a regular breaker would not trip.

Unless one could find a 30A GFI outlet that could be installed in panel...

 

[conpewter]

Wouldn't this greatly increase the risk of electrocution? That is, if current starts flowing anywhere other than back to the source (e.g. the keg), a regular breaker would not trip.

Unless one could find a 30A GFI outlet that could be installed in panel...

? That's why you would use the 30 amp cord with built in GFCI i mentioned.

 

[bakins]

? That's why you would use the 30 amp cord with built in GFCI i mentioned.

Is that cord a breaker as well - or just GFCI?? You need both. The OP only has a 50A circuit, but would need to protect his stuff with a 30A breaker.

 

[conpewter]

I would do the portable subpanel but with a regular 30 amp breaker. The GFCI breakers I found were more expensive than the 30 amp GFCI cord I ended up using in my system.

Plug 30 amp portable subpanel into the 50 amp, that way you have a 30 amp breaker. Then use the 30 amp cord with built in GFCI to power the brew-rig in whatever fashion you want.


http://cgi.ebay.com/30A-Ground-Fault-Interrupt-Plug-GFI-CordCable-FREE-SHIP_W0QQitemZ110302613578QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBI_Electrical_Equipment_Tools?hash=item19ae8c504a&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12|66%3A2|39%3A1|72%3A1205|293%3A1|294%3A50

He'll take $60 Best Offer I'm told

 

[lamarguy]

He'll take $60 Best Offer I'm told

Yup, confirmed.

 

[bakins]

Plug 30 amp portable subpanel into the 50 amp, that way you have a 30 amp breaker. Then use the 30 amp cord with built in GFCI to power the brew-rig in whatever fashion you want.

Ahh, I understand what you are saying now. Makes sense.

 

[slimer]

You guys better be right...

 

[psyber]

You guys better be right...

LOL is this for my sake or yours?

 

[psyber]

Plug 30 amp portable subpanel into the 50 amp, that way you have a 30 amp breaker. Then use the 30 amp cord with built in GFCI to power the brew-rig in whatever fashion you want.

Ahh, I got ya now.

I think if I were to go this rout I would spring for the GFCI breaker in the sub panel as I hope to, one day, have my own place in which to install it. However I think I am gonna have do some more reading about these type of panels before I get too carried away.

For some reason it just seems like a bad idea to have two breakers wired in series together. However, I am having a hard time convincing myself one way or the other.

 

[slimer]

LOL is this for my sake or yours?

Yes.

Psyber-The 30A wiring should be fused so it will trip before it would burn up. I understand that playing with electricity can lead to fire, electrocution and whatnot, but having a 50A plug running a 30A wire is the same thing as a lamp plugging into a 15A socket.

 

[bakins]

For some reason it just seems like a bad idea to have two breakers wired in series together. However, I am having a hard time convincing myself one way or the other.

No issue having multiple breakers in series. Just always go high to low:
Service breaker (200A or so in you main box) -> 50A -> 30A in you box ->your stuff. This is how a range works, for example, there are usually multiple fuses/circuits in side one of them. You can further fuse/breaker your "stuff" as well. You only want one GFCI in the series and the further "upstream" it is the better. In my case, I have a 50A GFCI in my main box - but you can just use a 30A GFCI in your subpanel.

Here's the subpanel I have used:

$18 at homerdepot. They also have an outdoor one, but I think putting the panel in a small water proof box (rubbermaid) would be better.

 

[psyber]

I checked some of these breaker boxes out at homedepot this weekend. I think they might work. My only concern is finding a place to put the relays and microcontoller inside them and having to cut out holes for the heat sinks and USB ports.

The guy I talked to at HD suggested I bolt a NEC junction box to the breaker box. Not sure I feel about having such a massive control box. Kinda looses portability. I am sure there is a better option I just need to look around more.

 

[CodeRage]

I checked some of these breaker boxes out at homedepot this weekend. I think they might work. My only concern is finding a place to put the relays and microcontoller inside them and having to cut out holes for the heat sinks and USB ports.

The guy I talked to at HD suggested I bolt a NEC junction box to the breaker box. Not sure I feel about having such a massive control box. Kinda looses portability. I am sure there is a better option I just need to look around more.

You make any modifications to the box and you void the Nema 4 rating. ie no longer splash proof. You could use a hot tub breaker panel. Comes with the GFCI breaker and everything for 80 bucks last I checked. Not too big either.

Eaton Cutler-Hammer at Lowe's: 50A Spa Panel Kit for Hot Tubs

 

[psyber]

You make any modifications to the box and you void the Nema 4 rating. ie no longer splash proof. You could use a hot tub breaker panel. Comes with the GFCI breaker and everything for 80 bucks last I checked. Not too big either.

Eaton Cutler-Hammer at Lowe's: 50A Spa Panel Kit for Hot Tubs

Wow, that is almost perfect! Now I just gotta try to find a 30Amp box.

 

[BrewBeemer]

No issue having multiple breakers in series. Just always go high to low:
Service breaker (200A or so in you main box) -> 50A -> 30A in you box ->your stuff. This is how a range works, for example, there are usually multiple fuses/circuits in side one of them. You can further fuse/breaker your "stuff" as well. You only want one GFCI in the series and the further "upstream" it is the better. In my case, I have a 50A GFCI in my main box - but you can just use a 30A GFCI in your subpanel.

Here's the subpanel I have used:

$18 at homerdepot. They also have an outdoor one, but I think putting the panel in a small water proof box (rubbermaid) would be better.

I have never found a UL approved tag on a "(rubbermaid)" product yet.
To play with safe and legal electrical devices is not cheap.

 

[bakins]

I have never found a UL approved tag on a "(rubbermaid)" product yet.
To play with safe and legal electrical devices is not cheap.

True.

I found a 12x12x6 waterproof junction box at home depot. It should work. It looked surprisingly like the non-UL irrigation boxes on the next isle, just cost twice as much...

 

[freddyb]

That's the box I use as my multi-purpose 120v temp controller. Works pretty well but I could see it getting pretty cramped...not much room for expansion.

Edit: wait, mine might be the smaller 8x8x6

 

[psyber]

Batkins, freddyb. Yup those were the boxes I planned on using to house my relays and microcontroller.

ATM, the best plan I can come up with is this

50a range receptacle> 50a range cord> 30a GFCI breaker box> 30a dryer cord>water proof control box >30a dryer cord>heating element. AND laptop connected to control box via USB.

Man, I hate all of the separate pieces chained together by various cords. Too bad there is not a way to mount a breaker in something other than a breaker box.

 

[bakins]

Too bad there is not a way to mount a breaker in something other than a breaker box.

Well,there's always these:

WMS2B30 Products

These are DIN mount and available in different amps and curves.

Good usage here:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/control-panel-99717/index6.html

I should have thought of that first. That's a very nicely layed out and designed control box. Basically you could do:

Range cord -> disconnect-> 30A -> SSR -> elements

Off the disconnect you could split into a few circuits actually.

Crap - I forgot about the GFCI... oops. Oh well, but maybe this will give you some ideas.

 

[CodeRage]

Crap - I forgot about the GFCI... oops. Oh well, but maybe this will give you some ideas.

They make them, not cheap but they are out there.
allied has them in 25 amp and 40 amp
Altech Corp. - 15.922 - Allied Electronics
You could replace the 50 amp breaker in your relay panel with a 50 amp gfci. Get a drop in replacement and you wont have to worry about it, you'll be protected before the range and you can use regular breakers from there on. I believe the go for about 100 bucks or less. Thats what I plan on doing. Certainly cheaper than the din rail variety.

The only reason it would not work is if you have an electric igniter for a gas stove, which can cause a gfci to trip, but not always.

Though I am sure some one is going to come busting in here and tell me that I am wrong and posing a gigantic communal risk.

 

[psyber]

Ground Fault Protectors: NDB1L-32C-32

Found these for $28 each. I guess I could use two of them. Although I am weary of trusting a company that hosts their site on godaddy.com


Din mount sounds like a great solution! Must do more research.

 

[psyber]

They make them, not cheap but they are out there.
allied has them in 25 amp and 40 amp
Altech Corp. - 15.922 - Allied Electronics
You could replace the 50 amp breaker in your relay panel with a 50 amp gfci. Get a drop in replacement and you wont have to worry about it, you'll be protected before the range and you can use regular breakers from there on. I believe the go for about 100 bucks or less. Thats what I plan on doing. Certainly cheaper than the din rail variety.

The only reason it would not work is if you have an electric igniter for a gas stove, which can cause a gfci to trip, but not always.

Though I am sure some one is going to come busting in here and tell me that I am wrong and posing a gigantic communal risk.

Ouch! yeah, those are steep.

Not sure if the land lord would appreciate me swapping out breakers but I suppose its an option.

 

[CodeRage]

Yeah, I saw that one too but I cant really tell if that will work for you, typically there will be a pole for L1, L2, and N. The one I posted is the same configuration. I meant to post the 4 pole one from allied.
Altech Corp. - 15.926 - Allied Electronics

 

[psyber]

They make them, not cheap but they are out there.
allied has them in 25 amp and 40 amp
Altech Corp. - 15.922 - Allied Electronics
You could replace the 50 amp breaker in your relay panel with a 50 amp gfci. Get a drop in replacement and you wont have to worry about it, you'll be protected before the range and you can use regular breakers from there on. I believe the go for about 100 bucks or less. Thats what I plan on doing. Certainly cheaper than the din rail variety.

The only reason it would not work is if you have an electric igniter for a gas stove, which can cause a gfci to trip, but not always.

Though I am sure some one is going to come busting in here and tell me that I am wrong and posing a gigantic communal risk.

Would there be any problem with an electric stove?

 

[psyber]

Yeah, I saw that one too but I cant really tell if that will work for you, typically there will be a pole for L1, L2, and N. The one I posted is the same configuration. I meant to post the 4 pole one from allied.
Altech Corp. - 15.926 - Allied Electronics

Wouldn't two 1-pole breakers (1+n) be equivalent to a typical 2-pole GFCI breaker? I have never worked with DIN before so I might be missing something.

 

[CodeRage]

No, electric stove would no be a problem.

And, the short answer for the two 1+n gfci breakers is no.

 

[psyber]

AH HA. I think I finally have a design that will work.
First, as much as I like the din mout setup I think it out of my budget ($60+ ssrs and $100+ gfci breakers kind of killed it).

I went back to home depot for another brain storming session and found this little beauty: 30amp breaker box

Assuming a 30amp GFCI will physically fit this box will be perfect.

Now, in order to keep the controls together with the breaker, I hope to put the either breaker box in entire a 8 x 8 x 12 or 12x 12 x 8 junction box.

So,the junction box will house the breaker box, microprocessor, and two SSRs. The box will also have a 12v DC input for the microprocessor, a dryer receptacle for the keg, temp probe connectors, and an 50 amp range cord for powering the unit. Will probably also add a LED on each of the DC control lines going into each relay to act as secondary indicators for when the relays are open or closed.


As for heat dissipation, I cant decide if I want to add a fan or break down and buy the heatsinks for the relays (an extra $20 a pop ).


So, anyone see something obviously wrong or dangerous with this?

 

[bakins]

As for heat dissipation, I cant decide if I want to add a fan or break down and buy the heatsinks for the relays (an extra $20 a pop ).

Go for the heat sinks. The fan won't help the SSR's without them.