Electric BIAB, no pump, no element guard

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
1MadScientist

1MadScientist

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2011
Messages
680
Reaction score
50
Location
Panhandle of Florida
Does anyone have any experience with electric BIAB with no pump?

I have a controller with an Auber PID and have a 5500 W ripple element from Bobby.

I am looking for success stories, no burned bag.

Thanks...

MS
 
I do have some experience but without the controller. I just stir while heating for mash steps, it works just fine.

Not sure how useful the controller will be with out constant stirring or recerculation. The temps do stratify very quickly if I don't keep up stirring. But like I said I haven't tried it so I don't know what I am talking about on this part.

Good luck on the new system.

-chickens
 
I have the same setup.I us a false bottom over the element.I generally use a hoist to keep the basket hanging just above the false bottom but have rested the basket on the false bottom with no issues
 
chickens4life said:
I do have some experience but without the controller. I just stir while heating for mash steps, it works just fine.

-chickens
Click to expand...

Chickens - just to confirm that your bag touches the element during the mash?

The best I can figure is that running in auto or manual, that it wouldn't run more than at 5-7% power output.

The brew-boss video shows running/maintaining mash temp w/pump at 9%. Their biggest element is a 5500 W fold back. Bobby's ripple has half the watt density of that one.

MS
 
I have done both, element touch the bag and with the bag contained in a basket. No problems either way just less to clean if you leave the basket out.
 
I have made half a dozen 5 gallon batches using BIAG and no pump butt would never do so without a barrier.

I use a perforated pizza pan with 4 SST bolts holding the plate 3"off the bottom and an inch of the element. The element is run wide open at 23A while hearing the strike water so contact with the bag would melt it instantly.

Spiral spray nozzle will go in the lid next with a little tan pump for circulation. No stirring that way.
 
Firewalker11

Perchance, I am now looking to buy one of those tiny 12v pumps. With one of those pumps, do you think I can get away without an element guard while bringing up the temp from 152F to 172F?
 
That all depends on your PID settings. The PID just sends voltage to the SSR to close, how long it closes is up to you. Closing for several seconds will burn the bag, closing for a short time at short intervals open will burn the bag. A guard is cheep insurance. What is your reluctance to use one?
 
Firewalker11 said:
A guard is cheep insurance. What is your reluctance to use one?
Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly, a basic guard could be fashioned out of almost anything, a piece of aluminum flashing bent in a v with a bunch of holes, a tall boy beer can punctured with a hundred birdshot holes slipped over the element, lead free shot of course...maybe a pizza screen rolled to slip over the element...anything to physically space the element from the bag. I don't think it would take a $200 false bottom.

I would be concerned that the bag and grain would tightly surround the element, and the heat, even at a low setting would not be dissipated from the immediate area around the element.

Cut many large holes in this, and cut the ends to fit the element....just spitballin ideas...
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Nordic-Ware-Natural-Bakeware-Aluminum-1.5-lb.-Loaf-Pan/17429986

Perforate with large holes, cut and bend in a v shape to fit kettle and cover element....done
http://www.ebay.com/itm/one-1-4-siz...357?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4194a83715

or perhaps better yet
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Johnson...409?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c98c5e269

Or with a bare element, perhaps you could just experiment and run the element at a very low power to add some heat to the kettle to offset cooling, but to automate with a pid....just not sure where you could effectively locate the probe without distributing the heat throughout the mash?
 
wilserbrewer said:
...Or with a bare element, perhaps you could just experiment and run the element at a very low power to add some heat to the kettle to offset cooling, but to automate with a pid....just not sure where you could effectively locate the probe without distributing the heat throughout the mash?
Click to expand...

My one concern with the bare element would be to use a SRC to limit the power sent by the SSR to the element. You could use a bag in water to find the line where the bag starts to degrade due to heat and back off a tad. Read the voltage off the SCR and you would have a max voltage for that element with no burn through.

SCR 10,000W 75A
 
I'm with wilserbrewer on this. A makeshift element guard is a no brainer and shouldn't cost you an arm and a leg if done diy. Some scrap SS would fit the bill as well as all those listed above. A 12v pump is also sort of a no brainer, especially if you already dished the money out for a PID.
 
Firewalker11 said:
My one concern with the bare element would be to use a SRC to limit the power sent by the SSR to the element. You could use a bag in water to find the line where the bag starts to degrade due to heat and back off a tad. Read the voltage off the SCR and you would have a max voltage for that element with no burn through.



SCR 10,000W 75A
Click to expand...

A bag in water is a much different fish than a bag in a mash....water only gets to boil temp and is self regulating, while a mash can skyrocket....aka scorching!

You can't burn a bag in water, you CAN burn a bag in a mash.
 
Two different things, we were not talking about boiling but hearing and yes, you can most certainly melt a bag on a hot element in water. I have the holy bag to prove it. ;-)
 
Ok, but an element in water and an element in a mash will not be at the same temperature at the same voltage. The water will help dissipate the heat much better than a mash will....water flows while mash is stagnant. Maybe I'm missing your point, but I just kinda
doubt you can determine the voltage at which scorching occurs.

Kinda moot anyway if your not moving the heat throughout the mash, idk
 
At this time, I am trying to design a v-shaped guard template from paper. My ripple is mounted on one of Bobby's tri clamp radiused flanges, so I can rotate the element vertically. Do you think 1 1/4" chassis holes are too big?
 
1MadScientist said:
Do you think 1 1/4" chassis holes are too big?
Click to expand...

Probably not too big IMO, but without knowing how far the hole will be from the element, one can't really say :confused:

If the hole is right next to the element vs an inch or two away, how do we know.....my crystal ball is on the fritz :mug:

Guessing you plan on removing the guard for the boil, correct?
 
Firewalker11 said:
Two different things, we were not talking about boiling but hearing and yes, you can most certainly melt a bag on a hot element in water. I have the holy bag to prove it. ;-)
Click to expand...

My hanging hop bags have been sitting on my 5500W element for 5 years, never a hole. The bag even has metal weights inside to make sure it's sitting right against that element.

I don't BIAB, but I thought my experience was relevant. Pardon me if I misunderstood the subject.
 
I wonder how an element guard with a channel going up the side of the pot would work using convection currents. It should effectively recirculate the wort all by itself. Not as effective as a pump but cheaper, less equipment required, and less to clean.
 
Really interested in this topic, as I'm about to switch from propane to electric BIAB.

Right now, I have a SS sheet with a bunch of holes cut that just rests on the weldless bulkhead inside the pot. All it really did to this point was let me heat to sparge with the propane burner on. I'll need to find out if SS bolts will give me room to install a 5500W ripple element underneath the guard.
 
passedpawn said:
My hanging hop bags have been sitting on my 5500W element for 5 years, never a hole. The bag even has metal weights inside to make sure it's sitting right against that element.

I don't BIAB, but I thought my experience was relevant. Pardon me if I misunderstood the subject.
Click to expand...

That's one of the things that keep this hobby interesting, YMMV on any experience at any time. I'm heading off to pick up my grain bill now and will record some real time temperatures off my 5500W, 240V element. Also, bag materials differ greatly, my hops bag is cotton and can withstand 450° easily while the poly paint strainer bag disengaged at the point of contact at 350°F.

This is why I bought the SRC so I could dial the voltage down to control the overall heat output.

I'm not sure what you mean about the heat not being the same in wort or strike water with the same voltage. I am guessing you mean in the area and not local or touching the element surface?

For the same voltage, regardless of liquid, the heat on the surface of the element will be the same, pre boil.
 
Firewalker11 said:
For the same voltage, regardless of liquid, the heat on the surface of the element will be the same, pre boil.
Click to expand...


The temperature of the element at a constant voltage is directly related to the ability of the the surrounding liquid or mash to dissipate the heat. A mash is not a liquid and will not carry the heat away from the element, but rather insulates the element. The liquid in the mash is not free flowing, regardless of the heating means a mash can overheat if the liquid is not moving over the heat source.

Just as an element will reach a different temperature in air vs water, it will also reach a different temperature in a mash vs wort, because the wort in the mash is trapped local to the element and keeps heating, rather than flowing clear of the element.
 
wilserbrewer said:
The temperature of the element at a constant voltage is directly related to the ability of the the surrounding liquid or mash to dissipate the heat. A mash is not a liquid and will not carry the heat away from the element, but rather insulates the element. The liquid in the mash is not free flowing, regardless of the heating means a mash can overheat if the liquid is not moving over the heat source.

Just as an element will reach a different temperature in air vs water, it will also reach a different temperature in a mash vs wort, because the wort in the mash is trapped local to the element and keeps heating, rather than flowing clear of the element.
Click to expand...

OK, I may be missing something, we were talking about a bag and then mash/wort as a general term without the bag?

In any case, I will get temp readings on the element with the strike water and on the mash/wort. So far it looks like there are four theories, a boil bag cannot burn in strike water alone, a boil bag can melt when in contact with the element in clean strike water (my observation), mash water allows more concentrated heating and can burn through a bag and hop bags in contact with a heating element cannot burn the bag.


It appears that they all cannot be correct with the same parameters so a simple test or sampling of the temp on the surface of the element should give us a definitive answer. Anecdotal experiences apparently are not enough.
 
1MadScientist said:
Firewalkerr11,

I am interested in your electric setup, please post back with what you find and post pictures of your controller and src.
Click to expand...

I can get some pictures later today but to start off with, I am using an aluminum pot from Staples, 40, they go for $29 each. The element is the standard Camco Ripple 5500W, 240V, $27 on Amazon. Weldless three piece valve and bulkhead, barbed end, about $30. Amico 2.7m 8.8ft Thermocouple Temperature Control K Type Sensor Probe for $7 on Amazon plus a tap to install it in the side. MyPin TD4 SNR, 40A SSR, from china, $15. L6-30 plugs and outlets, misc hardware, box, switch, lights, $100.

I have to look up all of the other gear later along with the pictures.

The nice thing is that you can start with the pot and do propane/gas cooking and move on to electric after you collect all the parts, that is what I did and I have to say that I will NEVER go back to flame cooking EVER! :beard:
 
I just burnt a hole in one of wilserbrewers bags this weekend using a 1800w induction burner. :(

Luckily its right near the stitching so i can just shorten the bag and remove the burnt parts. Looks like I'm in the market for a bag protector.
 
emyers said:
I just burnt a hole in one of wilserbrewers bags this weekend using a 1800w induction burner. :(

.
Click to expand...

If you want to ship it back to the "factory" :), I can likely give it a nip n tuck. PM me if interested.

I would think something simple like a pizza screen would be all you need with an induction plate. Anything to provide wort at the bottom of the kettle, otherwise the bag and grain pack tightly on the bottom of the kettle and overheat / scorch.
 
I use a round chrome cooling rack with propane BIAB. Works great.
 
Lookin good....ya gonna insulate the kettle to save a few watts?

Save a little work for your element perhaps. The guys that recirc typically don't bother, but with a still mash I figure couldn't hurt.
 
Jumping on this thread a little late, but I do eBIAB with a 60qt Bayou, Auber 2352 PID, Camco 5500W ULWD, Wilser bag, and no pump. I know the bag sits on the element even though I try to avoid it, but I haven't had any issues after 9 batches. Set the PID at 152, cover kettle and stir every 20 minutes. I use a Wilser hopsock too, but I ensure that doesn't touch the element during the boil, even though I think it'd be fine.

As always, YMMV, just wanted to add my 2 cents.
 
I usually forget the mash out with no ill effects. When I do remember, I usually lift the bag above the element while it's heating then re-secure it when it's up to 170. I hope it goes well for you! If not then you didn't hear it from me!
 

Similar threads

D
Love controls troubleshooting
Replies
15
Views
1K
HighVoltageMan!
H
O
Upsizing to 50 gallons BIAB
Replies
25
Views
945
mashdar
mashdar
P
Is this 240v GFCI working on my setup?
Replies
11
Views
938
mac_1103
mac_1103
S
New to Electric brewing
Replies
14
Views
1K
Exception13
Exception13
Nick Poggetti
Heating Element Scorching - Long boils w/ High OG Wort
Replies
25
Views
1K
Nick Poggetti
Nick Poggetti
CornyKegs 300

Latest posts

Back
Top