Efficiency Frustration....

[Brewnoob1]

So, I've read and read on efficiency. I'm trying everything I've read except for water chemistry because for me, I like to master 1 thing at time before taking on more. So here is my current process for last night's brew along with the grain bill (I got the recipe from my LHBS and I've done it before and really like it. You can make suggestions to that if you see something horribly wrong) Note...I do ask them to crush finer than their normal setting. I've walked back to their industrial crusher and watched them adjust the setting for me. So unless I need to crush even further, I'm starting to rule out crush as the primary factor.

5lbs of Flaked Wheat
5lbs of German Pils
1lb of 6-row
1lb of Rice Hulls
8oz of Acid Malt
4oz of Munich 10L
(I'm missing a pound of something.....this is all from memory)

The recipe suggested using 1.3qt/lb so that's what I went with. I actually probably went closer to 4.5gallons but whatever. Strike water was raised to 168 and mashed in. Recipe suggested mash temp of 152. I was at 155. I stirred until I brought it down to 153ish and left it there for 70-75 minutes. I did a batch sparge with another 4 gallons or so. I ended up just shy of 5 gallons. My target OG was 1.063. I only got 1.052 or so. Maybe a few points higher with the temp correction. But calculating my efficiency I got between 65-67%. I know that's not too far off of the 70 mark but it's still pretty frustrating when you hit all your numbers almost exact (except for a little shy on the end amount, but even then it would lower my gravity further thus reducing my efficiency further).

 

[texasbrewer73]

A a few things I can think of...

How often do you stir during mashing? Stiring more often may help some.

Sparge - I'm not as familiar with Batch spraging as I am fly sparging, but slowing down the sparge may help. Other's could chime in on that.

Water Chemistry - definitely the next thing for you to look at. If your water source is low in calcium, that could be affecting your enzymes and you're not converting as well as you could.

 

[tally350z]

What is your batch sparge method? Do you do a single batch sparge of four gallons.. Maybe try to split it into two even batch sparges. That may get you a few more percentages in eff.

Also, what is your preboil volume and gravity you are getting?

 

[Brewnoob1]

I did a batch single sparge this time as the last thing I read from Palmer is that it doesn't effect efficiency that much to split it into 2 batches. I could try it though. My preboil was a bit low at around 5 gallons. I had to dilute it further with about a gallon of water to bring up the volume. However, I calculated my efficiency before adding the water. So if I took the addition into account, it only makes my efficiency worse

As for stirring, this time I stirred about every 20 minutes. So, 3-4 times during the mash.

 

[mbobhat]

I don't do multiple sparges, but I do a mashout by raising temp of initial mash up to 168ish with so many quarts of boiling water. I think it helps immensily in decreasing the viscosity and getting more sugar out initially. Then I would stir, stir, stir with the sparge water to make sure all the sugar is getting off the edges of the cooler.

Good Luck fellow batch sparger!!!:rockin:

 

[billl]

I think you are missing some wort. 13lbs of grain should absorb somewhere in the neighborhood of 2 gallons. So if you did 4.5 + 4 - 2 - ?? = 5, that means you got a gallon and a half of equipment loss in there. That is fairly high. If you aren't getting a really good drain on those first runnings, you are missing out on a lot of sugar rich wort.

 

[Brewnoob1]

I was super excited during this batch because i hit all my numbers with temps....everything except coming a little shy on preboil volume. Then to do the calc and find I was only 65% or so was a crusher. I even stirred like 6 or 7 times during the whole thing...so not sure what to do other than water chem

 

[mbobhat]

I think you are missing some wort. 13lbs of grain should absorb somewhere in the neighborhood of 2 gallons. So if you did 4.5 + 4 - 2 - ?? = 5, that means you got a gallon and a half of equipment loss in there. That is fairly high. If you aren't getting a really good drain on those first runnings, you are missing out on a lot of sugar rich wort.

What he said. I don't really count the mashout water in my total volume needed because it usually makes up for the water absorbed by the grain.

 

[tally350z]

What is the pound you are missing? Also did you get the recipe from somewhere on the forum here? I ask because I put what you provided in beersmith 2 and it with a batch size of 5.5 gallons it calls for a OG of 1.055. I am new to using beersmith so...Could be wrong

 

[Brewnoob1]

I dont have my recipe in front of me and 1lb of the bill was rice hulls. Not sure if there is much absorption there? Not sure it matters but I tasted some of the grain before disposing after all was said and done and there was no residual sweetness (which I was glad to see hoping I wasn't missing any sugar)

 

[duboman]

For a 5 gallon batch your actual pre-boil volume should be more like 6.5-7 gallons of wort and this would account for boil off and equipment loss.

If you were shy of 5 gallons pre-boil then you left a lot of wort behind somewhere and that's where your efficiency dropped.

Once you added water then you should have also lengthened your boil time. Yes I know this means you would get less wort in the primary but your OG would have been higher.

Adjust your numbers and take better volume measurements. When you collect first runnings in the kettle measure the volume with a calibrated brew stick. For example, if you mash in with 4 gallons and get 2.5 first runnings you know that 1.5G was absorbed. Thus you need 4.5-5g of sparge water to arrive at the proper pre boil volume. Then boil for 60 minutes, cool and go to primary. Measure again what you got and this will then give you your boil off/shrinkage,etc.

Once you figure all these numbers out you can then adjust the settings in your software.

 

[airving]

I'm still dialing in my efficiency, but I've got a problem in the other direction because of that.

Fearing low efficiency, I add enough extra malt to cover for a bad extraction. And then when it works out better than expected (hit 75% last time!) I end up with a 6.5% brew when I was shooting for something slightly more sessiony. I'll be damned if I'm going to water that down, though...

You might add an extra lb or two of base malt as insurance. And extra sparging volume will get more sugar out. At worst you boil longer and end up with a slightly darker beer.

I'll second the suggestion for confirming where your lost volume is going. Is it sitting at the bottom of your mash tun when you clean out your grains?

 

[Brewnoob1]

When I cleaned out my tun, the grains were pretty dry and only about a cup of water sat in the bottom. So, I'm at a loss really. I'll just have to take down more exact information on all my numbers come next batch. Thanks for the inputs all.

 

[mbobhat]

In case you need some "de" motivational encouragement (and are a fan of nintendo):



I have been getting into the acid and base part of brewing. I was always wondering why my brown ales were good but if I forgot to use 50/50 distilled water my efficiency sucked on anything other. The next path for you this is...(in a yodaesque voice)

 

[duboman]

When I cleaned out my tun, the grains were pretty dry and only about a cup of water sat in the bottom. So, I'm at a loss really. I'll just have to take down more exact information on all my numbers come next batch. Thanks for the inputs all.

Dry as in not wet?
An additional thought is the calibration of your thermometer. If it is off and you are actually not reaching your desired temp you may not even be getting good conversion

 

[Brewnoob1]

I don't know. This is my 2nd digital thermometer.

 

[Brulosopher]

First off, how are you measuring OG- refrac or hydro? And what temp is the wort when you're taking your reading? This has a particularly significant impact when using a hydrometer.

Next, 65% is just fine!! Especially when batch sparging higher OG beers. I actually shoot for 70% regardless of my method. Just adjust your software and/or recipes. You're fine, player. Cheers!

 

[texasbrewer73]

I still say check your calcium levels in your water. If you grain or that last cup of wort isn't sweet and you're still getting what you think are low numbers, then I would guess either 1) your crush isn't fine enough, 2) low calcium will inhibit enzyme activity to convert. Keep trying and as the poster before me alluded and Alfred E. Neuman once said "Need not worry". It's still beer - and that's a good thing.