Distance between element and HERMS coil

[Humuleneman]

I was wondering what do you guys use to rise your HERMS coil from the bottom of you pot. I just finished my new dual coil and a small stand. Im not sure if its too high? View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1448338251.203418.jpgView attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1448338277.891654.jpg
Is the only downside to this is to have to keep a high level of water in your HLT?
Thanks

 

[kal]

My HERMS coil is rigid enough that once attached to the kettle it holds itself up.

It's probably an inch or so above the heating element. That distance isn't critical. As long as the coil doesn't have all its weight resting on the heating element you're good.

The lower you can install everything the better as you mentioned. I have more info and pictures as to the distances I installed in my HLT build instructions here: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/hot-liquor-tank?page=4

Good luck!

Kal

 

[Double_D]

^^ Ha!! I was just saying that was a perfect copy of Kal's pot! Then I realized Kal posted the picture.... I built a Kal clone. My herms coil supports itself just like Kal's.

How long is your coil? It looks a little overkill...

Here's a couple pictures of mine. I want to say it's about an inch from the element.

 

[Humuleneman]

Thank you Kal. I always love to see nice clean all stainless pot. Ive use 1/2 OD copper tubing. 50 feet of it. Its a little heavy and not as strong as stainless. I went for copper for the better heat transfer. I also did a dual coil to minimize the height. My connection to the pot are using ss 1/2 union to remove the coil for cleaning. View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1448500587.520403.jpgView attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1448500604.828920.jpgView attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1448500618.977198.jpg
I'm using camco 5500 w ULWD ripple element with bobby's element tri clover enclosure. From what ive mesured. I have 1 1/2 in between the bottom and the element and the same to the coil. Im planing on using a propeller type lab stirrer to keep water temp even. Thanks again. Your experience and knowledge in e brewing lead me to where i'm now.

 

[Humuleneman]

Dear Double_D , i like the look and simplicity of your copper coil. If i may return your question !! How long is your coil? And is this 1/2 OD? Do you get quick mash heating if you need to bring up temperature really fast? What is you element wattage? Thanks again.

 

[Double_D]

Dear Double_D , i like the look and simplicity of your copper coil. If i may return your question !! How long is your coil? And is this 1/2 OD? Do you get quick mash heating if you need to bring up temperature really fast? What is you element wattage? Thanks again.

It is half inch OD. It's only 25' long though.

I was talking to the owner of my LHBS regarding wort chillers and all that. He referenced surface area vs distance as his reason for a 25' chiller (he told me where he read it but that was years ago). What he said was that the liquid has already come up to temperature within the first 15 - 20 feet so the extra length is superfluous. The only way to increase cooling is through put of liquid or increase surface area. Herms is basically a chiller in reverse. We were also talking about 3/8" vs 1/2". With a march pump there is no way to increase throughput plus, you wouldn't want to draw wort too fast or you could compact the mash. At least that's what they say... never had that specific problem. Stuck sparge from rye and corn yes but that's a separate conversation.

Originally, i had 50' of stainless because I thought that was what Kal had done. Sadly, recoiling it was a nightmare and I kinked it. In several places. So.... I went with my local guy and it has been amazing.

I have a 25 gallon HLT from brewers hardware (the pot and fittings). I recoiled the herms around a standard 15.5 gallon keg. Obviously I haven't done any actual testing regarding the effects of 50 vs 25 but the math sounded good.

As far as mash heating is concerned, I've found it's more dependent on the temp in the HLT. The closer it is to my actual mash temp the slower it is to reach a higher temp. I want to say going from 150 to a mash out at 168 probably takes 20-30 minutes, depending on what I have in my mash tun. I usually start heating my HLT up about the last 15 minutes of my mash so it's ready to go. I haven't run into a situation that heating really fast was necessary. I've been trusting beersmith with my mash temp calculations for a long time. I did find out that it's always 5 degrees off though and I can't figure out where to compensate for that but not really a big deal.

4500 watt elements are what I'm using. I figured if it really bothered me I could just pull them out and replace them. The elements are easy enough to rebuild. I couldn't find the 5500 watt Ripp elements locally and I got impatient.

Here's my set up.

 

[kal]

It is half inch OD. It's only 25' long though.

I was talking to the owner of my LHBS regarding wort chillers and all that. He referenced surface area vs distance as his reason for a 25' chiller (he told me where he read it but that was years ago). What he said was that the liquid has already come up to temperature within the first 15 - 20 feet so the extra length is superfluous. The only way to increase cooling is through put of liquid or increase surface area. Herms is basically a chiller in reverse.

With respect to your LHBS, a wort chiller and a HERMS coil aren't really exactly the same thing. Or should I say the logic used when deciding what to do in a chiller don't always apply to HERMS coils.

For example, with an immersion chiller (IC) you're cooling boiling wort with cold water. The temp differential between the two liquids is very large so you want to use copper for better heat transfer between the two. With a HERMS coil, the two liquids are only a degree or two apart. Using copper with a HERMS coil therefore does not have a measurable benefit over using stainless steel. Most therefore use stainless HERMS coils as it is more rigid and can take caustic cleaners more readily. There's no benefit to a copper HERMS but there is with a copper IC.

We were also talking about 3/8" vs 1/2". With a march pump there is no way to increase throughput plus, you wouldn't want to draw wort too fast or you could compact the mash.

If you're compacting the mash then the system is poorly designed or your milling too fine. Make sure to use a good quality false bottom avoid sidewall shunting, and do not mill finer than 0.045" gap size with any system where recirculation happens (like HERMS or RIMS).

At least that's what they say... never had that specific problem. Stuck sparge from rye and corn yes but that's a separate conversation.

Shouldn't happen even with 50%+ rye/wheat/etc. I have a HERMS setup, all 1/2" tubing and HERMS coil, run the pumps at 100% open, never use rice hulls, and never have flow issues when making a beer with 60% wheat (no husk).

As far as mash heating is concerned, I've found it's more dependent on the temp in the HLT.

Simple way to test: Run the mash (and HLT) pump 100%. If the temp of the wort coming out of the HERMS coil isn't the same temp as the HLT water, then you could use a longer HERMS coil.

Kal

 

[Double_D]

He's all yours Kal. Please excuse my intrusion.

 

[kal]

No intrusion at all! Comments are always good. Having more comments gives people more things to think about.

Kal