Disappointed.

[Goose5]

I recently took the plunge into all grain. My last three brews have been disappointing. Off flavors and cloudy appearance kind of have me wondering if this is all worth it. What do you do when this happens?

 

[seabrew8]

You put up another batch.

 

[slym2none]

Re-think my processes. Something is going wrong, you just have to figure out what it is. It certainly isn't the grain's fault...

 

[carloscede2]

Keep going, and it wouldnt hurt to do and extract from time to time. If you can find quality malt then it should be pretty easy. If I were you, Id check a tasty recipe from here and the temperature that you are fermenting at. Brewing beer is about patience

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

Keep going and plow on through. If I stopped or went back to extract at three batches I wouldn't have improved my process as much as I have, it was 10 batches before I started making good beer, 20 before I started making awesome beer, and now after 35ish all grain BIAB I am placing beers at competition with my own recipes.

Don't be afraid, keep rolling and trying. It's worth it but there's a learning curve, even more so when trying to create your own recipes. It's really satisfying when you write your own recipe, brew it, then drink it and it's awesome, and then it places at competition(if competition brewing is part of your goals, it is for me so I can act like I'm not an alcoholic).

 

[urg8rb8]

First thing I'd question is your water. What kind of water are you brewing with?

 

[seabrew8]

First thing I'd question is your water. What kind of water are you brewing with?

Thats a start. I've put up 8 all grain batchs now and all but one was a lot better then extract beer.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

First thing I'd question is your water. What kind of water are you brewing with?

This!

Find out what your city water pH is. Or if you are buying spring water, call the company and ask them the pH. Chloride/sulfate levels are important, but not as important as mash pH. Once I found out my city water pH and started adjusting my water with acid/acidulated malt I saw a dramatic improvement in my beers.

 

[jcav]

Hey Goose, what type of system are you brewing with? Do you use coolers, BIAB, rims, herms, or something else? If you give us some more info on your system and how you brew there are so many people here that will help and give you good advice to iron it out. It will take a little while to dial in your particular system. Off flavors could be something small that someone will catch here on your process and you can correct that. Or it could be wild yeast, infection, etc.. Cloudy beer is also a process and depends on what kind of beer you are making. A hefeweizen should be cloudy but if you want clear beer post your process and people will help. Incidentally a Whirlfloc tablet in the boil kettle and gelatin after fermentation in the keg, does wonders for cloudy beer, just saying. The main thing is stay with it and you will improve, and your beers will turn out great once you get proficient in your process, I promise. So let us know what you brew on and how you brew it and the help is a coming!

John

 

[Hello]

Get to the bottom of the flavors. Forget about clear beer as taste is really important first, right? How are you fermenting? Are you getting full conversion? Are you using fining agents? What water are you using? There are so many things to figure out when you say your beer is disappointing. Did you use the same water for extract batches?

 

[pricelessbrewing]

This!

Find out what your city water pH is. Or if you are buying spring water, call the company and ask them the pH. Chloride/sulfate levels are important, but not as important as mash pH. Once I found out my city water pH and started adjusting my water with acid/acidulated malt I saw a dramatic improvement in my beers.

While this is true, water PH and mash PH have little to do with each other. It's all about the water content.

 

[Goose5]

System is mash cooler. Single infusion mash technique. 10 gallon brew pot doing full boils. Last couple of brews I've tried the 5.2 Mash additive. That's the only thing I've really been doing different. Kegging. No real temperature control other than room temp controlled by where I put the fermenter. Wyeast. Water is considered hard but not insanely hard. Fining agent I use Whirlfloc about 5 minutes before flameout.

As I reflect on this post has anyone has problems after using the 5.2 Mash Stabilizer product? That is the only thing I can really think of that is different.

 

[acidrain]

The two biggest things I've found to help reduce off flavors and consistent batches is fermentation temp control and water chemistry.
If your water is considered hard, or near hard, obviously you have high mineral content. Forget the 5.2 additive... that's just blindly adding crap. Get a water report and dial in your minerals. Once you know your water, you can adjust it using an on-line calculator to calculate how much RO water, minerals, and/or acid to add. That will make you mash PH within range, which is very important for flavor profile.
See if you can come up with some type of fermentation control. A free or cheap fridge off craigslist plus an STC 1000 controller will get you digitally controlled fermentation for somewhere in the $20 to $50 range.
Keep at it. You're almost there.

 

[Dirt_McGirt]

System is mash cooler. Single infusion mash technique. 10 gallon brew pot doing full boils. Last couple of brews I've tried the 5.2 Mash additive. That's the only thing I've really been doing different. Kegging. No real temperature control other than room temp controlled by where I put the fermenter. Wyeast. Water is considered hard but not insanely hard. Fining agent I use Whirlfloc about 5 minutes before flameout.

As I reflect on this post has anyone has problems after using the 5.2 Mash Stabilizer product? That is the only thing I can really think of that is different.

I've never used it, but the consensus here seems to be that mash stabilizer is not much better than snake oil - not effective.

You're better off getting your hands on brewing salts (gypsum, calcium carbonate), and either getting lactic acid or adding sauermalz to your lighter grain bills. The Bru'n Water spreadsheet is a wonderful, free resource to help you dial in your water from batch to batch, but you'll need to get some idea of your local water's mineral content, or simply build from RO.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

While this is true, water PH and mash PH have little to do with each other. It's all about the water content.

If you know the water pH you can calculate what it would take to adjust the pH of your mash with acid or acidulated malt... If your mash or sparge pH is too high you get weird off flavors in your beer. I fail to see how they're completely unrelated, high water pH, high mash pH, weird off flavors in your beer. Before I started adjusting with acidulated malt my dark beers (stouts/porters) all tasted as expected, but the lighter beers always had weird soapy/astringent off flavors like over extracted tea. Started adjusting with acidulated malt and now straight acid and my light beers no longer have that odd off flavor. High city water pH, weird off flavors in light beers due to high mash pH...

Most city water isn't going to be crazy high in certain numbers, if your city water has huge sulfate or huge chloride amounts then sure, or if they happen to have really high magnesium/sodium/calcium (completely unbalanced high numbers) then sure there may need to be other adjustments to the water content. On the other hand most city water is fairly normal/bland so for the sake of simplicity adjusting your mash pH is probably easier to understand and add to his skill set than it is to really get into the business of water chemistry and adjusting the content.

 

[hunter_le five]

Your mother and I are also very disappointed in you, but we think that's punishment enough in itself.

And quit using 5.2 - it's not doing you any favors.

 

[The_Bishop]

If you know the water pH you can calculate what it would take to adjust the pH of your mash with acid or acidulated malt... If your mash or sparge pH is too high you get weird off flavors in your beer. I fail to see how they're completely unrelated, high water pH, high mash pH, weird off flavors in your beer. Before I started adjusting with acidulated malt my dark beers (stouts/porters) all tasted as expected, but the lighter beers always had weird soapy/astringent off flavors like over extracted tea. Started adjusting with acidulated malt and now straight acid and my light beers no longer have that odd off flavor. High city water pH, weird off flavors in light beers due to high mash pH...

Most city water isn't going to be crazy high in certain numbers, if your city water has huge sulfate or huge chloride amounts then sure, or if they happen to have really high magnesium/sodium/calcium (completely unbalanced high numbers) then sure there may need to be other adjustments to the water content. On the other hand most city water is fairly normal/bland so for the sake of simplicity adjusting your mash pH is probably easier to understand and add to his skill set than it is to really get into the business of water chemistry and adjusting the content.

There are a *lot* of incorrect assumptions in this post.

First and foremost: Starting water PH has little to nothing to do with Mash PH. The mineral content, alkalinity, and grain bill determine mash PH.

You cannot 'calculate your acid additions based on starting water PH'.

You should, however, acidify your sparge water to neutralize the alkalinity.

You cannot assume anything about your starting water because it's 'city water.' A water test will tell you exactly what's in your water and that's the only surefire way to tell.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

There are a *lot* of incorrect assumptions in this post.

First and foremost: Starting water PH has little to nothing to do with Mash PH. The mineral content, alkalinity, and grain bill determine mash PH.

You cannot 'calculate your acid additions based on starting water PH'.

You should, however, acidify your sparge water to neutralize the alkalinity.

You cannot assume anything about your starting water because it's 'city water.' A water test will tell you exactly what's in your water and that's the only surefire way to tell.

Did I state to assume anything about his water?

Sometimes too much information to a new brewer can hurt more than it can help. Then on brew day they're trying to remember two dozen things about water chemistry, rather than just focusing on trying to keep their mash pH within acceptable ranges, then in future batches digging deep into the science of water chemistry. Get or find a water report for the city, or whatever water source you are using, then find out the pH and alkalinity, then you have a good idea of why the original batches had off flavors(if the pH and alkalinity are through the roof).

 

[jlinz]

There is some good advice here but maybe a change of perspective is needed to deal with the disappointment. Here is a suggestion from somebody who has made more bad beers than good ones: Take the bad ones as a challenge to get deeper into the hobby. Part of the fun is figuring out what makes better beer by tweaking one thing at a time. Maybe do some small batches for each new tweak so you don't waste too much money. Believe me, when you start to get things right, the feeling is great. But, who wants an easy hobby? Give a real baker an easy bake oven, and they will laugh in your face. Know what I'm saying?

 

[TheHopfather]

Obligatory water primer post - read over this sticky, then read a couple more times, it will start to make sense;

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=198460

The biggest change in going all grain from extract is that you have to do your own mash. Mashing properly includes ensuring that your mash pH is in the correct range. If you are mashing and your pH is way off you will end up with a lifeless, bland beer and possibly off flavors. Ditch the 5.2 Stabilizer, get some lactic acid or acidulated malt and the Bru'N Water spreadsheet and try to dial in your mash pH. If you follow the primer linked above you can skip Bru'N Water (for now) and go with AJ's 2% rule.

Keep plugging away, you'll get there.

 

[The_Bishop]

Did I state to assume anything about his water?

Yes, you did:

If you know the water pH you can calculate what it would take to adjust the pH of your mash with acid or acidulated malt...

The starting PH of the water you're brewing with means nothing. You cannot decipher how much acid you need to adjust the PH of the mash without knowing the alkalinity of the water, as well as the grain bill.

If you have a very low alkalinity water, like RO or distilled, it takes very, very little in the way of acid (or alkali) additions to swing the PH of the water from one end of the spectrum to the other. If you have water with high alkalinity, it takes increasing amounts of acid or alkali to change the PH of the water.

I understand that you mean well, but you're giving out bad advice.

 

[Aristotelian]

Just read this experiment article by Brulosopher on vorlaufing. It is beside the point (he says vorlaufing indeed works to make clearer beer), but the interesting takeaway is that in the blind experiment, people preferred the taste of the cloudy beer. Significantly. That got me wondering whether we are needlessly chasing clarity and losing flavor in the process.

http://brulosophy.com/2016/02/22/th...oes-it-make-a-difference-exbeeriment-results/

What method are you using? You could go BIAB.

 

[JonW]

Couple of other things to look at on your water. You didn't mention the source of the water other than it sounds like it is your tap water. Do you run it through a charcoal filter to remove chlorine/chloromines? Are you using a green garden hose filling up your kettle? If you brew outside and use a hose, you need a white RV type hose so that you don't get off flavors from the pvc hose.

Do you have a homebrew club in your area. Getting together with others and seeing their processes is invaluable to help you think about what you are doing.

 

[MapleGroveAleworks]

1. Stop using pH stabilizer.
2. Stop fermenting at room temperature. Either use a swamp cooler or invest in a controlled setup.
3. Make sure you are taking care of your yeast health.

As long as you are doing those things and keeping everything clean, your beer should be fine.

 

[LandoLincoln]

I recently took the plunge into all grain. My last three brews have been disappointing. Off flavors and cloudy appearance kind of have me wondering if this is all worth it. What do you do when this happens?

Drink more beer.

Then after that...

I ask people on here what the heck I did wrong and then they ask me questions about my process and then I tell them about my process and then they nicely tell me that I'm an idiot and then they show me where I was being an idiot and then I do what they tell me to do and then it usually turns out for the best.

 

[BeardedBrews]

My BIAB tastes much better now that I'm paying attention to my mineral levels and pH.

I figure on Extract, since the entire mash is already done, the chemistry of the water has almost no impact. My water, which was great for extract, was not good enough for my expectations with all grain.

@Aristotelian I tend to take the Brulosophy articles with a grain or 10 of salt (as they explicitly instruct readers to do). The one variable that does seem to stay constant across their experiments is that mash chemistry and mineral additions do matter. I've taken that to heart.

-B

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

Yes, you did:



The starting PH of the water you're brewing with means nothing. You cannot decipher how much acid you need to adjust the PH of the mash without knowing the alkalinity of the water, as well as the grain bill.

If you have a very low alkalinity water, like RO or distilled, it takes very, very little in the way of acid (or alkali) additions to swing the PH of the water from one end of the spectrum to the other. If you have water with high alkalinity, it takes increasing amounts of acid or alkali to change the PH of the water.

I understand that you mean well, but you're giving out bad advice.

Ok, I can see I didn't state to get a water report, I was hoping that my advice would be taken as get a report and *know* your numbers instead of *assuming* your numbers. I am trying to give basic advice rather than hammering a million things into a new brewer that literally has a million things flying at his head all at once while trying to learn all grain brewing. With my own personal source water it has a high pH and high dissolved alkalinity so to me they're one in the same. Low alkalinity water like RO also has a pH around 7, so I have a hard time in my mind separating them since it appears that they're very closely related (if your source water's pH doesn't matter, then why do we even enter that into the calculators?).

 

[bbohanon]

1. Stop using pH stabilizer.
2. Stop fermenting at room temperature. Either use a swamp cooler or invest in a controlled setup.
3. Make sure you are taking care of your yeast health.

As long as you are doing those things and keeping everything clean, your beer should be fine.

This along with the advice of figuring out your equipment and how it makes your beer if key especially with its ups and downs with efficiency and other part of your process/gear.
Each all grain system brews beer a little bit different than others..

Tossing all grain equipment into the mix along and expecting to get great results just from switching to all grain without knowing how your new equipment works and how to work around its limitations or shortcomings is probably alot of your issues.

I would also say this..move to using store bought spring water to start off with. All this adjustment of water is important, but if you cannot brew a simple SMASH all grain batch on this gear without having issues means you need to strip down the variables to the minimum.

- Start with a simple all grain recipe (SMASH works well here)
- Use store bought spring water for this simple recipe batch and don't worry about PH for this batch as it will only complicate things.
- Hit your strike/mash/sparge temps (learn your gear)
- Ferment at the right temp and for enough time (VERY IMPORTANT as previously mentioned)
- Use Irish Moss (Whirlfloc) 10 mins before end of boil (helps clarity)
- Pitch enough yeast (Again VERY important as previously mentioned)

If this works and the result is better than what you have done before, work UP from there recipe/water/other things to dial it all in gradually.

Sometimes the simplest things are the key and its what I do when things go off the rails..strip my process down to the barest essentials and figure out the issue then work back up from there. Brewing is mostly trial and error anyhow which is why its so fun.

One of the biggest mistakes I see from new all grain folks is that they go all-grain and start to brew complicated batches that should not be brewed until they learn the process, their all-grain gear and how to adjust things (Like the water profile) to fit the recipe..

From my experience, learning about water profiles with all grain brewing was one of my biggest hurdles to overcome as one water profile does not fit all beers and is the difference in that chocolate milk stout being "meh" or it being one that you and your fellow drinkers shed tears of sorrow over when the last bottle is emptied or keg kicks.


:fro:

 

[beernutz]

OP, can you elaborate about the kinds of off flavors you are experiencing? I don't see much detail on that in your first or subsequent post.

My advice for troubleshooting any brewday problem would be to try to list and prioritize your ingredients and/or procedures that you believe are having a negative impact on your beer from highest to lowest and change them one at a time in your upcoming beers. For example if you are unsure about your local water then perhaps buying RO water and using that for a batch but leaving everything else the same as a previous batch would let you know if that is the problem. If you change too many things for one batch you run the risk that you may not know which change led to an improvement in your beer if you see one.

 

[TasunkaWitko]

I shouldn't even wade into this, but my advice would be to get a 1-gallon kit (or buy the necessary equipment to put one together at your LHBS). This will allow you to learn the exact same fundamentals that you would on a 5-gallon scale, without the extra 4 gallons of disappointment attached.

Also, don't change 7 or 8 things at once, or you will never know a) what the problem was or b) exactly what you did that fixed it.

Finally, I would advise that you work on your procedure and keep it simple. Intimately learn the fundamentals for making consistently good beer, and then worry about tweaking it with whatever esoteric method in order to consistently make great beer.

I don't mean to sound condescending because I consider myself a to be very much a rank beginner, but for now, put the engineering books away and just make some beer. The rest will evolve naturally.

 

[chickypad]

With my own personal source water it has a high pH and high dissolved alkalinity so to me they're one in the same. Low alkalinity water like RO also has a pH around 7, so I have a hard time in my mind separating them since it appears that they're very closely related (if your source water's pH doesn't matter, then why do we even enter that into the calculators?).

Not to beat it to death but this is where you're going wrong. I have very low alkalinity water (bicarb in 6-15 range) and on multiple Ward lab reports the baseline pH is over 9.

OP if you don't want to get into water too in depth but want to rule it out as a factor I'd recommend brewing a batch with RO water and use the water primer linked above to do some simple adjustments.

 

[jcav]

I know we all have our own budget restrictions and everyone just can't go out and buy everything we need right away. I acquired things I needed a little at a time. I can tell you that what made a dramatic change for me and instantly took my beers to the next level was using RO water. Then as a general rule without getting into adjusting it too crazy and without a lot of reading you can, as a starting point (it will make great beer), add 1 teaspoon of calcium chloride (4.2 grams) per 5 gallon batch, for malty beers, and add a teaspoon of calcium sulfate (gypsum) for hoppy beers. For both malty and hoppy beers you can add one teaspoon of both. I suggest you read the sticky on water that was posted in an earlier post and a few books when you can, "Brewing Better Beer" is a good one that comes to mind. You can get RO water at Walmart in the machine inside the store for about .39 cents a gallon. We have "Glacier" water machines in front of some drug stores where I live and I can get 5 gallons for $1.00. Try and invest in a good ph meter. Then measure your mash and see what your meter says. You really need to get your mash ph in the 5.2 to 5.4 range with 5.2 being ideal. If it is higher then you can add some 88% lactic acid, a half a milliliter at a time, (I use a small syringe) stir and re-measure with your meter. Keep adding lactic acid (or phosphoric acid) until you achieve a ph of 5.2.

After figuring out my water the next thing for making really good quality beer was making a yeast starter and pitching plenty of healthy yeast, along with giving the yeast oxygen in the fermenter (I use an air stone and a portable red oxygen tank from home depot). As your budget allows you really have to control the temps on fermentation. Pitching the right amount of healthy yeast, and controlling the temp that yeast strain likes to be at, is huge! After that you can get a grain mill and crush your own grain and your efficiency will improve. Get a good program like Beersmith or whatever you like, which will tell you how to fine tune your recipes for your system and how hot to make your strike water, so you can mash correctly in your cooler, etc. So here is some good starting points. Then ask like crazy on here and read as much as you can. I can go on but this is more than enough to chew on for now. Hope this helps a little.

John

 

[mongoose33]

I'm new at this all-grain thing too, and new at trying to figure out water.

After studying this for a while, I decided I probably would be miles ahead to get an RO system to produce my water, and add whatever amendments I needed, instead of trying to take my very hard water and figuring it out.

Trying to find the least expensive yet effective way to do that. Probably won't need it to produce more than 20 gallons per month...

 

[jvector]

Think about your process, figure out where you are being at least a little lazy (we ALL are lazy about one thing or another), and try to improve one thing each batch. I've been brewing for years and I still try to improve ONE thing each batch.

-Are you using enough yeast? No? Make a starter.
-Are you filtering out chlorine from your water? No? Get a filter.
-Are you using good thermometers for controlling or measuring temperatures? No? Buy a good one and use it.
-Are measuring everything carefully?
-Etc.

Pick one thing, and do it better each time. Your beers will follow your effort.

PS You may not know what you're doing wrong (or at least not well). None of us know everything. Read, read, read, and I guarantee you'll learn about things you could be doing better.

 

[Goose5]

Think about your process, figure out where you are being at least a little lazy (we ALL are lazy about one thing or another), and try to improve one thing each batch. I've been brewing for years and I still try to improve ONE thing each batch.

-Are you using enough yeast? No? Make a starter.
-Are you filtering out chlorine from your water? No? Get a filter.
-Are you using good thermometers for controlling or measuring temperatures? No? Buy a good one and use it.
-Are measuring everything carefully?
-Etc.

Pick one thing, and do it better each time. Your beers will follow your effort.

PS You may not know what you're doing wrong (or at least not well). None of us know everything. Read, read, read, and I guarantee you'll learn about things you could be doing better.

If I expect my OG to be below 5 I usually don't do a starter. If above I do a starter. I use Camden tablets to take care of chloramine. 1 tablet treats 20 gallons so a half tablet treats both mash and sparge water. One thing I didn't mention before is I usually buy 2 gallons of distilled water to cut the hardness. My temperature control is room temperature for primary. Maybe stick the secondary in the fridge if that style warrants it. I can't really describe the off flavor. A very short metallic taste in the after taste. My pallet is definitely untrained in this regard. I have been considering the SS Brewing stainless brew bucket with the temp control, but with current results I have a hard time dropping 400 dollars for extra equipment.

 

[joshesmusica]

If I expect my OG to be below 5 I usually don't do a starter. If above I do a starter. I use Camden tablets to take care of chloramine. 1 tablet treats 20 gallons so a half tablet treats both mash and sparge water. One thing I didn't mention before is I usually buy 2 gallons of distilled water to cut the hardness. My temperature control is room temperature for primary. Maybe stick the secondary in the fridge if that style warrants it. I can't really describe the off flavor. A very short metallic taste in the after taste. My pallet is definitely untrained in this regard. I have been considering the SS Brewing stainless brew bucket with the temp control, but with current results I have a hard time dropping 400 dollars for extra equipment.

It seems to me, you probably don't need to be focusing on your water just yet. Your two biggest problems are 1) ferment temp control, and 2) using that 5.2 pH BS.

You also didn't mention your typical ferment timeline, or at least not in specific detail. I believe the consensus around these parts these days is that a secondary is, for the most part, unnecessary. So I would also ditch that. Here's a thread showing the importance of controlling the temp of the beer, not the room temp:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=553916

 

[mattsearle]

I've done probably 10 AG recipes, and probably 3 or 4 have come out disappointingly.

I racked my brains about my what happened as my process was no different to my successful beers, and in the end I'm sure that the bad beers have come down to working with bad recipes, so were doomed from the start. Often I think from trying to make up my own recipes before I was ready, or tweak recipes too much before I understand what I was really doing.

After that I would say perhaps one has been down to poor sanitisation as I think it was an infection that spoiled it (my 1st AG).

I say pick a simple pale ale recipe from here that is well reviewed by lots of other brewers, and uses only 1 or 2 different malts and 1 or 2 different hops. Be meticulous with sanitisation and fermentation temperatures, and if you have a bad beer you'll know that you're doing something wrong in your process. I took reading and notes like crazy and made sure that every step was done right before moving on (my mash conversion was complete, my target pre boil gravity was hit or at least close, I had the right pre boil volume), then you can realistically assume that that element of the brew day isn't the problem.

 

[McKnuckle]

I am in agreement with the water and temperature control suggestions. But just for fun and a simple approach, try brewing a batch that removes a lot of variables:

Use 100% RO, Distilled, or spring water and brew a SMaSH recipe. Keep the bitterness in the 25-30 IBU range, and don't worry about dry hopping. Just 60/5 additions. Mash middle of the road, 152F. Aim for about 5% ABV. Pick a temperature tolerant, neutral/clean ale yeast like Chico, Kolsch, or Cali Common.

It might be a boring beer, but that's not the point. The goal is to focus on process.

Let it ferment for 2-3 weeks til the yeast visibly drops and it clears. If you can't control the temp, at least measure and record it for learning purposes. Cold crash if you can for at least 3 days. Then bottle or keg. If it's clear before you package but cloudy later, your handling skills may be to blame. If it's not clear, then STOP! You're rushing things.

 

[Durso81]

All great advise but if I was to try and take on all this info on water when first trying to tackle all grain I would get discouraged. Depending what your using for water, you can make good beer with store bought spring water.

Focus on processes, fermentation temp and time. Give your beer time to condition out and this very's based on style and alcohol content.

Then get yourself a book on water and brewing and start to learn about ph and additives and changing water profiles. When I starting learning about water I felt like I was back in science class which I wish I would have paid more attention in.

 

[urg8rb8]

It's really not that difficult to do AG and simple water chemistry together for the first time.