Critique my brewstand design please.

[brewman !]

Design change !

I want to heat the mash with heatsticks, not by circulating the wort though a heat exchanger. I think this means that I want a round mash vessel, like a Gott or maybe Sanke kegs. I guess one could use a square vessel like a cube, but I think a round vessel would have better heat distribution and mixing.


Here is what I said in my "extreme cooler hacking" thread.

Look at this. http://www.cedarcreeknetworks.com/ccbc.htm

People using 2KW "heat sticks" to raise the temp of their mash ! I asked a guy a couple questions and he says it doesn't burn the wort or the grains as long as you don't let it sit still too long. Like you can let it sit for a bit without any trouble. But don't pull it out as it instantly burns the wort. I bet that RIM systems that are burning the wort don't have enough flow or the pipe diameter is too low or there is air in the line or something like that.

So... I want to heat my wort with heatsticks. I want to mount them on an automatic stirrer. I want the stirrer to mount in the ROUND mash vessel and be adjustable for different grain bed depths. I might have 2 versions of the heat sticks, one long version for deeper beds and one short for shallow beds.

I need an inexpensive high torque low speed motor to move the stirring arms. And I don't want to stir round and round. I want to stir 160 degrees and then return. I want this so that I can feed power to the heatsticks without having to worry about a cord bunching up or using a rotating contactor. So what if one used a windshield wiper motor ? Cheap. Easily available. High torque. Does less than a full turn. Hmmm...

And the heat sticks will only have to run during temp increases. The stirring will run then too and whenever the mash should be stirred anyway.

This is where having a flexible controller will come to play. We can control stirring. We can control heating. We can control recirculation as well. There is no reason why if one puts the heat in via the heat sticks that one wouldn't want to do some recirculation to make the temperature of the bed even more uniform.

 

[brewman !]

Actually I am not sure I want to automate the stirring. That would probably be one of the more enjoyable, nostalgic parts of brewing. A man and his mash. Its a beautiful thing !

If one uses a well insulated mash vessel they keep the temperature for quite a long time. And a 4.5 KW heat stick would heat the mash up pretty quickly. And a manual stir would probably be better than a robotic stir because a human can get into all the nooks and crannies, etc. I think I want to stir my mash.

Lets say we are brewing a 12 gallon beer and we get 30 points per pound and we want OG to be 1.050. So we need 20 pounds of grains. That will be about 8 gallons of material or 65 pounds.

4.5KW = 15,534 BTU/hr = 255 BTU per minute.

255/ 65 pounds = just about 4F per minute.

150F to 168 F = 18 degrees. It should get there in about 5 minutes. I can stir my mash for 5 minutes ! That is the fun of brewing !

The 4500 watt hot water elements need a tank that is 12 inches in diameter, meaning the mash bed needs to be 12 inches deep. The heat sticks will burn out if they are not submersed. I could use 2 120V 2KW heat sticks too. They are shorter and have more surface area.

So no more heat exchanger tank and coils. And the mash vessel needs to be easily accessable. The cubes can stay again.

Now the only thing we need to automate is the temp of the hot liquor tank. I'm still going to use the controller board. I'll be putting temp sensors in the mash vessel and I want to record everything.

BTW, I've been reading and emailing people and lots of them said they wish they had mash tip on their units. Apparently, digging 25 pounds of wet grains out of a mash vessel isn't much fun.

 

[Kaiser]

Why do the heat sticks have to be on the stirrer. I'd mount them such that they don't get in the way of the stirrer. This way you don't have to worry about reversing the direction of the motor. And the motor can run all the time at low speed. This way you keep a nicely homogeneous mash all the time.

Kai

 

[olllllo]

Feature creep is rearing it's ugly head. Look out!

 

[homebrewer_99]

I don't plan on ever going AG unless I hit the lottery and open my own brewery, but as for keeping items dry and dirt free while brewing I have 1, OK, 2 words - shower caps!

SOURCE: You usually get them in hotel rooms.

I can start collecting/saving them for you...

 

[brewman !]

Feature creep is rearing it's ugly head. Look out!

That is hilarious ! But you have to remember that in the process we ditched the whole water heater box and heat exchanger.

Why do the heat sticks have to be on the stirrer. I'd mount them such that they don't get in the way of the stirrer. This way you don't have to worry about reversing the direction of the motor. And the motor can run all the time at low speed. This way you keep a nicely homogeneous mash all the time.

I guess you could. You'd maybe want 4 paddles on the stirrer so that mash was constantly being moved past the heat stick(s).

I take it you concur that this is a good approach to heating the mash in the tun ?

 

[dantodd]

You might want to put a "dead man's switch" on the stick if you go that way. It will keep you from worrying about leaving it sitting in one place and burning the wort.

 

[brewman !]

Yeah, well further to the wort burning comment, I did some searches and people say the 2KW 120V element is on the verge of doing so all the time. So much so that they like to run thinner mashes.

I'm beginning not to like that approach.

You know the approach to mash heating in the tun that I like ? Believe it or not... STEAM.

http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue2.4/jones.html

Here is what I am thinking... take a good corny keg. Put a 5 PSI relief valve on it. Mount the 4.5KW element on it. Put a line with a valve from the top of the keg to the a manifold on the bottom of the mash vessel. Put a temperature sensor in the corny. Pressure test it with air to make sure the relief valve works properly. Hydro test it at about 30 PSI just to be safe.

Fire it up with some water in it. Figure out what temp the keg needs to be at to be at about 5PSI of steam. Use the controller to keep the temp there. When you open the valve, you will have steam to heat the brew. When the temp drops the controller will kick the heating element on.

No mixing. No scorching. No recirculating, unless you want to. No heat exchangers. Just inject the steam. And it will bubble the mash to boot. And it will work with any mash vessel geometry.

 

[Orfy]

Sounds good. But I'd be **** scared if the valve stuck and there was a blockage.
You've got a bomb.

I'd stick a large vent port on it with a blow off cap or a some other weak point in case there is a problem.

 

[brewman !]

You could always put 2 relief valves on it just to be sure.

The other thing is that it will have a temp gauge on it for the controller to watch. You can't get higher pressure steam without higher temps. So for the keg to get above the setpoint pressure, the relief valve would have to jam AND the temperature would have to go out of range. We can check for that with the software.

I'm not advocating running the keg with steam blowing out of it like a stove top pressure cooker does. Nope, too wasteful on a 2 hour mash session. The controller will keep the temps at a few PSI below the blow off pressure.

 

[runhard]

I love it when people come forward with ideas and such. This thing is already 5x better than my last setup.

I agree, people here have been very helpful and it seems that everyone wants to help each other make better beer.

Keep us informed. I'm afraid of RIMS truthfully, due to wort burning. The whole purpose of mashing is to build up enzymes to make sugars. Enzymes are very temp sensitive and higher temps (180F+) can kill some of them. So I'm not sure how I feel about running wort past a very hot (300F) element. I'd love to hear a detailed answer on this. Have you ever measured return wort temp on your system when its running hard, ie heater on quite a bit ?

My efficiency has been good but now I'm concerned as you bring up a very good point. I just saw in Brew Your Own magazine an inexpensive way of making an in-line thermometer so I'll make that this weekend and brew a batch on my system and let you know. I'll place it directly after the element as see what temp. I'm running at. I know you've changed your design but there may be others that my little findings might benefit. Great idea Brewman !

runhard: have you ever batch sparged and done infusion mashes and compared how they are to your RIMS ? Do you ever get the feeling that we are making too much of step mashing and fly sparging ? It sure would be a lot simpler to design a system without HERMS or RIMS.

My first 20 some odd batches of all grain where on a simple 3-tier gravity system I built out of 4x4s, turkey fryers, coolers, etc. I did both batch and fly sparging on that setup and I had good conversion, I'd just use about 1lb. more grain for batch sparging. I need to refer to my notebook to give you specifics but I'm visiting my folks this weekend doing some work around the ranch. If you're interested I'll PM with all the specifics of the different brews and their efficiencies when I return home. I've been listening to the podcast of basicbrewing.com and there was one session discussing how well modified most of the malts are and how step mashing isn't really necessary for "most". I still step mash and will do so until I've had an opportunity to gain further knowledge concerning the modified malts. I'm sure there are others who are in the know and can comment. I look forward to seeing more designs.

 

[brewman !]

Here is how hard it is to get an arduino board going.
http://www.arduino.cc/en/Main/Howto

I am going to order my board this week. I want to start working on the steam generator over the Christmas holidays. No promises when things will get done, but this has my attention. And remember this is my hobby that I do in my spare time. Although lately one would have to question that !

 

[fifelee]

I've been out for a few days and won't get back to my main computer until monday. I used Pro Engineer for the 3d modeling. I was going to do the color changes you asked for, but sounds like the design has taken a turn. I will take a closer look on monday and see what I can do. Let me know how I can help. Got to go.

 

[brewman !]

Thanks fifelee !

 

[fifelee]

I really like you last concept and the steam generator sounds really interesting. Not sure if you can get your hands on a pipe bender, but this would be a one of a kind system. I think I may make mine this way. I haven't had time to add other features like the controler and wort chiller. Maybe after christmas.

Also thanks for all the controller info. I am a mechanical guy, but would love know control systems better. I have done a little ladder logic, so I was going to use a plc for my system. But your info has given me the confidence to attempt a little C++. Please keep posting your progress and I would love to have a look at the code when you get there.

 

[psymn]

Is this interesting to other people or just me ?

I'm interested but i need to know how difficult the welding will be. I have limited experience, and know very little about the materials and equipment needed to pull this off. Is this something a novice could do?

On the other hand, there is a fabrication shop that builds weirdo equipment for our lab, maybe they could build the stand for me.

Are you going to offer tech support for the controller ? Programming is a another area where I have no experience.

All this considered, could I build this and brew without burning the house down? I think my wife would be way more pissed than if I messed up the kitchen!

Matt

 

[dcbrewmeister]

fifelee - I've been watching this thread with great interest because I'm getting ready to build my stand soon. Just a suggestion, but wouldn't the handles be better/easier to handle if they were more "wheelbarrow" like? Use a couple pieces of "C" channel, some round tubing (for the handles), drill a hole through the pair, bolt them up and they will drop out of the way when your not moving the stand.

If your handle is not low enough, it's going to be awkward moving your stand around without any wheels under it.

Just a thought.

 

[brewman !]

I really like you last concept and the steam generator sounds really interesting.

I did some calcs on it last night and its totally feasible. The steam generator will raise the mash temp by up to 20F per minute for a 10 pound grain bill ! Compared with about 3F per minute for a good RIM or HERM system. It will no longer be a problem to do really fast, accurate mash temp changes. Taking the mash from 128F to 170F will require the addition of about 2/3rds of a cup of water, injected as steam.

I am going to call it Steam Injected Mash System or SIMS.

I've got a rudimentary parts list as well. Time to start testing.

I ordered my arduino board this morning. It will be a week or so until it gets here. (USPS)

"Not sure if you can get your hands on a pipe bender, but this would be a one of a kind system. I think I may make mine this way."

I am going to built mine out of square tubing, which doesn't bend well. I think I may get it galvanized. I think that is a pretty durable finish and it looks great too. And it is much cheaper than SS or aluminum, which won't stand up to burner heat. A local company will DIP my brewing stand, trailer hitch, boat hitch, etc. up to 350 pounds of stuff for $100 ! You can't buy much SS for $100 !

Also thanks for all the controller info. I am a mechanical guy, but would love know control systems better. I have done a little ladder logic, so I was going to use a plc for my system. But your info has given me the confidence to attempt a little C++. Please keep posting your progress and I would love to have a look at the code when you get there.

No problem and sure. I haven't done much reading yet, but that arduino board is designed for non technical people like artists and such. It should be very easy to use.

Thanks for generating the 3Ds !

I'm interested but i need to know how difficult the welding will be. I have limited experience, and know very little about the materials and equipment needed to pull this off. Is this something a novice could do?

Depends how much time and money you want to spend learning to weld ! Its not going to be hard to weld, just stick or mig should do it. There is no SS or aluminum welding. Buy a welder and practice for a bit.

I can't believe how much $$ people pay for sculptures compared to how easy they are to build.

Remember that you could always bolt your structure together.

Are you going to offer tech support for the controller ? Programming is a another area where I have no experience.

Tech support ? Nope, not formally ! With enough good homebrew offered, maybe ! I'll answer questions and put together a how to.

All this considered, could I build this and brew without burning the house down? I think my wife would be way more pissed than if I messed up the kitchen!

You have to be careful welding ! Sparks can start things on fire. With respect to the electric heating elements, everything will be on a plug in, so just unplug it if it runs away. You could also wire switches into the circuits to shut things down. And you should have plenty of water around to put out the fire.

I consider propane burners to be much more dangers than electric heating elements, but maybe that is just me. All it takes is one gust or a pot boil over to blow out the burner and you have raw natural gas spewing everywhere !

With a ground fault interrupter, its almost impossible to get a shock.

 

[brewman !]

dcbrewmeister, I agree the handles should be more wheelbarrow like. So that one grabs them mid thigh and then straightens the legs to lift. They should also be removeable so that one has full access to the brewpot when boiling. Just my $0.02 though.

 

[brewman !]

Question of the day... which vessels ?

I have 3 cut off Sanke kegs, about 14 gallons. They aren't shiny, but I could polish them. I could also sell them for $60 each.

I could buy Igloo Cube coolers for $30 each.

I could buy Rubbermaid 10 gallon round coolers for $60 each.

If I use the Sankes, I think I would need to make insulation for the HLT and the mash vessel. And I need lids for them as well.

I am worried a little bit about bed depth when brewing light 6 gallon recipes. The inside of the Cubes is 14x14. The inside of a Gott is 13" diam. The inside of the Sanke is 15" diameter. As far as bed depth goes, The deepest would be the Gott, followed by the Sanke, followed by the Cubes. The Gott holds 10.2 gallons, the Sanke holds 14ish and the Cubes hold 12. I might occasionally brew 12 gallons of heavier beer.

I could also buy new shiny brewpots for about $400. (15 gallon)

If I sold my Sankes for $60 each and considered that I would have to spend $120 on lids for them, I'd have $280, almost enough to buy the new pots. But I don't want to tell my wife I am spending $400 on new pots ! She would freak !

I might make 2 versions of this stand, just for fun. The first one will be plain, the next one will be shiny. Hmmm...

 

[dcbrewmeister]

dcbrewmeister, I agree the handles should be more wheelbarrow like. So that one grabs them mid thigh and then straightens the legs to lift. They should also be removeable so that one has full access to the brewpot when boiling. Just my $0.02 though.

Use a quick release pin (like a receiver hitch) instead of a bolt and nut...

 

[brewman !]

Just so people understand, I am going to build and test my system as I go.

I'm going to put together the steam generator and vessels along with the new control system and get that working. Once I am happy with that, I'll build the new stand.

I want to get the steam generator and control system working first so that that if I change something it doesn't affect the layout of the stand. Once the process works, I'll design the stand to fit it.

I'll use my old stand and such until I get my new one done. It will be a bit makeshift, but its better than building a whole system and then hacking it to pieces because it doesn't work the way I wanted.

 

[Orfy]

Brew man, once you have the components, why not build a mock up using scrap wood or what ever is to hand to get a feel for it before going for the "real" build.

Or do you think you'll d a MKII anyway?

 

[brewman !]

Brew man, once you have the components, why not build a mock up using scrap wood or what ever is to hand to get a feel for it before going for the "real" build.

Or do you think you'll d a MKII anyway?

I'd rather build it in steel and sell it if I do a MKII. I can cut and weld steel pretty fast and its not that expensive.

 

[Orfy]

Must admit there was a time when I'd rather build a shed from steel than wood. I used to use a welder every day.

Some people think it's a black art but when you've tried it and have the kit it's real easy. I've not welded for over 15 years bought a mig welder last year "just in case". I'd love to get into SS welding but I have feeling I'd need a ig for that.

 

[fifelee]

Just a suggestion, but wouldn't the handles be better/easier to handle if they were more "wheelbarrow" like?

I agree, wheelbarrow handles would be more pratical for moving the stand. But bent pipe looks cool (a personal problem I have with everything being unique) and I was kind of thinking you could put hooks on the horz handle for hanging the lid and whatnot. You could also put a plate on top of the horz bar and make a shelf right by the brew kettle. Maybe I can mesh the concepts.

 

[brewman !]

http://morebeer.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=538

This guys comments should be taken into consideration with the mash tun being at the top like we are planning.

 

[brewman !]

Several people in this post don't like having the mash vessel up high. "a high mash tun just makes no sense to me." That kind of makes sense to me.

http://morebeer.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14486&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

One guy says this.

"I built a 1550, but regret it because I don't want to lift a keg up to the top.
If I can sell it, I'll build a single tier like yours."

Another guy says this.

"I like that setup too, I dont like filling my hlt on a ladder or lifting even that empty keg up that high. The only thing that is holding me back is the price of the pump."

I am thinking of going single tier or maybe 1.5 tier, with the boiling kettle nearly on the floor. I still like the idea of the mash vessel gravity draining into the boiler.

A true single tier system needs 2 pumps. The interesting thing about using two pumps is that it makes a HERMs setup really easy in that one pump can pump HLT water through a CCF and another pump can circulate wort through the other side of it. Not a bad way to heat wort if you ask me.

I might use both my steam masher and the CCF idea. That is overkill, but you can bet that between the two I will always have a way to control my mash temps !

Another thing I read over and over it everyone hates digging the spent grains out of the mash vessel. I really like the idea of having the mash vessel on a tipping mechanism.

The things I don't like about a single tier system is that its about 2 feet longer to store (6' long versus 4' long) and it probably needs a second pump and then the wort is pumped rather than gravity fed into the boiler during sparge. I don't know if I like that.

I wonder if putting a nice big fold up platform on the side of the 1550 design would help. So that its easy and comfortable to look at/work with the mash. It would still be a bit of a pain to get up there all the time.

 

[dcbrewmeister]

There's nothing interesting inside of an HLT, and no reason to climb a ladder to look inside of it.

I 'bout fell on the floor when I read that Put a sight glass on it and fill it from a valve on the side of the stand somewhere. Why do you need to look at a big kettle filling with water? 'bout as interesting as watching a pool fill. Get fancy, put an automatic shut off vavle on it.

 

[Orfy]

"ball cock" or float valve and have it auto fill.