Counter Pressure Bottle Filling

[hunchonbeer]

Hi,

I'm trying to get away from bottle fermentation. I have a Fermizilla and bought a counter pressure bottle filler. I don't want to deal with kegging right now either. I also don't have a good way to cold crash right now which is ok because the beer is crystal clear.

This is a Brown Ale that I would like carbonated to 2.3 vols. I did not ferment under pressure this time because I wanted the ester production. Frankly the WLP005 yeast was about done in 24 hours so it would have been hard to time slapping on the spunding valve for the last four points of gravity.

My plan is to carbonate in the Fermzilla. The temperature is 65 F. The bottles will be stored at 65 F. According to online calculators, to get to 2.3 vols at 65 F I need to pressurize to 23 PSI. From what I can tell, that should be safe for the bottle and once cooled in the fridge, that pressure should go down as more CO2 is dissolved in the beer.

All the videos on counter pressure filling have people using chilled kegs and bottles often around 12 PSI (depends on beer type). I do wonder what happens when those bottles warm up and CO2 comes out of solution (bottle bombs?)

If anyone has done this, what are the lessons learned? Once the beer is chilled in the bottle, because more CO2 will have been absorbed, will I have issues with head or foaming? While people talk about chilling the keg and bottle before counter pressure bottle filling, isn't it mostly about having the beer and the bottle at the same temperature to avoid foaming? I can see a chilled bottle encouraging some more CO2 to be dissolved and ensure the reverse process doesn't happen. The Fermzilla handles up to 35 PSI, so pushing it to 23 PSI seems ok, but it makes me nervous since most of the videos on line talk about 12 PSI give or take (but those guys have the Fermzilla in a fermentation fridge at 45 F after cold crashing).

Help me avoid any more big mistakes. I did my first brew with a Brewzilla Gen 4 and it was a s4it show, but hey, I still got beer in the end and it came out pretty good!

 

[AlexKay]

I don’t understand what you’re hoping to gain.

I’m also not clear on exactly what you’re proposing to do. Are you going to add sugar to the Fermzilla and then spund? Pressurize it with CO2 from a tank?

I’ve never tried counterpressure filling at those kinds of pressures, but I think you’re almost certain to spray beer all over the place.

There are ways to dip a toe into kegging, like keg conditioning in cannonball kegs, then attaching a picnic tap and a CO2 cartridge. And truly, bottle conditioning has a lot to recommend it too.

 

[Brewsmith]

From someone that has a counter pressure filler, you want to do it cold and at lower pressures. As stated above, you’re going to waste so much beer due to the foam. Just keeping it sealed under that much pressure will be a challenge and every time you pull it off the bottle it’s going to volcano out of the bottle. You are probably going to get more beer on you than in the bottle.

 

[eliastheodosis]

Yeah, these two said it pretty well already. I would think about it this way. Maybe 23 PSI gets you the right CO2 saturation in your beer inside that Fermzilla. So maybe you're carbonated inside the Fermzilla at 65F just fine. The challenge from there is to keep that CO2 in solution as you transfer. The solubility of CO2 in a liquid goes down as temperature goes up. The warmer the beer the harder it is to keep the CO2 saturated in that beer. That's why you would have to push the pressure up so high to carbonate in the Fermzilla to force the CO2 through the liquid/beer. That's also exactly why everybody keeps everything cold in this process. A colder liquid holds on to the CO2 better and makes it easier to keep in the beer.

A counter pressure filler works by keeping pressure on the beer as you bottle to keep that CO2 in solution. To keep the beer carbonated as you bottle. The warmer the beer the more pressure you'd have to put on it to keep it stabilized because the CO2 is going to want to come out of the beer more readily than when it's cold. So you're working with a less stable carbonation of the beer since it's higher temp and and also everything is at a higher pressure to try to keep it there. Like Brewsmith mentioned, trying to hold the filler sealed to the bottle with that much pressure is going to suck. Even if you have no problem holding the filler to the top of the bottle as soon as you go to pull it off the bottle to cap the CO2 is going to come gushing out of solution because you don't have pressure holding it in any more. That ends one of one ways. Beer shower.

Sorry if you already knew some of this. I know it was new and confusing to me at a certain point so I'm just trying to be clear about how I understand it. Alex above is right too. You can dip your toe into kegging in a few ways. I'll also add that I assume he suggests that for a reason. Many people are in between. They don't want to bottle but they can't keg for some reason. I've been there. If there was an easy way to bridge that gap it'd be all over the place. If you don't want to bottle condition then the answer is almost surely some kind of kegging situation and a way to chill it.

*EDIT*
Also, hi and welcome! My wife is from Cleveland I saw the email the other day from The Cleveland Brew Shop that they are moving to Yakima Valley Hops. That place seems pretty sweet. I've picked up a couple things from them when in town and the service has been top notch. RIP for their cat, Saaz The world needs all the black cats it can get.

 

[hunchonbeer]

Yeah, these two said it pretty well already. I would think about it this way. Maybe 23 PSI gets you the right CO2 saturation in your beer inside that Fermzilla. So maybe you're carbonated inside the Fermzilla at 65F just fine. The challenge from there is to keep that CO2 in solution as you transfer. The solubility of CO2 in a liquid goes down as temperature goes up. The warmer the beer the harder it is to keep the CO2 saturated in that beer. That's why you would have to push the pressure up so high to carbonate in the Fermzilla to force the CO2 through the liquid/beer. That's also exactly why everybody keeps everything cold in this process. A colder liquid holds on to the CO2 better and makes it easier to keep in the beer.

A counter pressure filler works by keeping pressure on the beer as you bottle to keep that CO2 in solution. To keep the beer carbonated as you bottle. The warmer the beer the more pressure you'd have to put on it to keep it stabilized because the CO2 is going to want to come out of the beer more readily than when it's cold. So you're working with a less stable carbonation of the beer since it's higher temp and and also everything is at a higher pressure to try to keep it there. Like Brewsmith mentioned, trying to hold the filler sealed to the bottle with that much pressure is going to suck. Even if you have no problem holding the filler to the top of the bottle as soon as you go to pull it off the bottle to cap the CO2 is going to come gushing out of solution because you don't have pressure holding it in any more. That ends one of one ways. Beer shower.

Sorry if you already knew some of this. I know it was new and confusing to me at a certain point so I'm just trying to be clear about how I understand it. Alex above is right too. You can dip your toe into kegging in a few ways. I'll also add that I assume he suggests that for a reason. Many people are in between. They don't want to bottle but they can't keg for some reason. I've been there. If there was an easy way to bridge that gap it'd be all over the place. If you don't want to bottle condition then the answer is almost surely some kind of kegging situation and a way to chill it.

*EDIT*
Also, hi and welcome! My wife is from Cleveland I saw the email the other day from The Cleveland Brew Shop that they are moving to Yakima Valley Hops. That place seems pretty sweet. I've picked up a couple things from them when in town and the service has been top notch. RIP for their cat, Saaz The world needs all the black cats it can get.

Thanks, very helpful. Been brewing for about 20 years and apart from big beers I want to age, I'm done with bottle conditioning. Really, really helpful info. I just bought two hop plants from Cleveland Brew Shop. I hope to get there soon. Are you a member of SNOBs? Great group.

 

[eliastheodosis]

Thanks, very helpful. Been brewing for about 20 years and apart from big beers I want to age, I'm done with bottle conditioning. Really, really helpful info.

No problem at all! I'm glad it's helpful. I did the bottle conditioning thing for quite a while. Stepping up to kegs will have some difficulties like cost and just some learning curve stuff like this. Once you have it set up and figured out it's great, though. If you're in Cleveland then I bet you can find some discounted stuff on Craigslist and Facebook Marketplace to soften the cost. That's about the only time you'll hear me suggest Facebook

I just bought two hop plants from Cleveland Brew Shop. I hope to get there soon. Are you a member of SNOBs? Great group.

Well, they have some great hops from Yakima Valley Hops now too and they've had a great yeast selection since I found them a few years ago. Cool that you got hop plants too. I just moved into a house with a big yard and I'm excited to get mine re-planted at my new place! I'm actually around the Chicago area so not a member of SNOBs. My wife's parents still live in Cleveland, though, up by Mentor. So we're there semi-regularly. I'll check out SNOBs and join if they have a meeting when I'm around there next time

 

[bracconiere]

keep that CO2 in solution

+1 the old seconds a pour rule.....