Could use help with persistent infection

[bobtheUKbrewer2]

I use it for all my brews it is reliable and drops out well.....

 

[WileECoyote]

Hello, I did not read the entire OP, nor did I read the entire thread.

I have had a very persistent infection however, and the only way I was able to eliminate it was using Hydrogen Peroxide @ a 50/50 mix with water submerging everything that comes in contact with the wort or beer for 72 hrs.

I will also state that nothing else and I mean nothing else worked on the infection I was dealing with, Washing then soak in StarSan then soak in a 50/50 Bleach Bombs then Wash again then soak in StarSan again did nothing, nothing else worked period.

Soaking in Hydrogen Peroxide for 72 hrs Worked.

Cheers

 

[eastoak]

Hello, I did not read the entire OP, nor did I read the entire thread.

I have had a very persistent infection however, and the only way I was able to eliminate it was using Hydrogen Peroxide @ a 50/50 mix with water submerging everything that comes in contact with the wort or beer for 72 hrs.

I will also state that nothing else and I mean nothing else worked on the infection I was dealing with, Washing then soak in StarSan then soak in a 50/50 Bleach Bombs then Wash again then soak in StarSan again did nothing, nothing else worked period.

Soaking in Hydrogen Peroxide for 72 hrs Worked.

Cheers

i've seen where you claimed to have found a super bug immune to star san in another thread. if i were you i would contact five star about this, i'm sure they would be very interested.

 

[MarcusKillion]

I recon it is quite possible a bug could mutate to be immune to Star San . Just as they do antibiotics. How ever I am not sure any bug could survive a 50/50 bleach soaking .

 

[eastoak]

I recon it is quite possible a bug could mutate to be immune to Star San . Just as they do antibiotics. How ever I am not sure any bug could survive a 50/50 bleach soaking .

i doubt this is true, the super bug discovered by a homebrewer.

 

[MarcusKillion]

What super bug are referring to ?

So you really think a bug can survive a bleach soaking ? But then I said I am not sure . Perhaps 50/50 is not strong enough to kill off some types of bugs .
One more thing on bleach . I know this from using it on myself to wash poison ivy oils off . all bleach is not created equal by far . Clorox . use it . that cheap stuff in the dollar store is already diluted . Not only will it probably not kill anything much , you can pour it full strength on your poison ivy rash after scratching it raw and it will only sting a tiny bit .
maybe that was the problem

 

[eastoak]

What super bug are referring to ?

So you really think a bug can survive a bleach soaking ? But then I said I am not sure . Perhaps 50/50 is not strong enough to kill off some types of bugs .
One more thing on bleach . I know this from using it on myself to wash poison ivy oils off . all bleach is not created equal by far . Clorox . use it . that cheap stuff in the dollar store is already diluted . Not only will it probably not kill anything much , you can pour it full strength on your poison ivy rash after scratching it raw and it will only sting a tiny bit .
maybe that was the problem

wow. just....wow.

 

[WileECoyote]

Ok Guys,

I really don't care if anyone believes me or not, what we went through is not BS.

I just wanted to give others an option to help them be able to reuse there plastics instead of the standard throw everything away and start over (like I was told to do).

Do some research on using different sanitizers like we did, the key word here is sanitizers, the only way to kill any bug for sure, is to sterilize it.

Hydrogen Peroxide worked when nothing else would, Believe it or Not, thats your call, but its really not cool to make it sound like Im making this up, we went through months of research and months of testing infected plastics in mini batches of beer to figure out how to kill this bug.

I really hope this information helps people that are only getting the standard answers, StarSan, Bleach, or Throw everything out.

Cheers

 

[IslandLizard]

...Hydrogen Peroxide worked when nothing else would, Believe it or Not, thats your call, but its really not cool to make it sound like Im making this up, we went through months of research and months of testing infected plastics in mini batches of beer to figure out how to kill this bug.

I really hope this information helps people that are only getting the standard answers, StarSan, Bleach, or Throw everything out.

Cheers

Where did you buy hydrogen peroxide in such large quantity? 5 gallons of 50/50 is not a measly amount. You didn't go your local CVS and raided a shelf's worth, did you?

I think the pros use some sort of acid.

 

[MarcusKillion]

wow. just....wow.

why " wow " It is a simple question to your post .

 

[MarcusKillion]

Ok Guys,

I really don't care if anyone believes me or not, what we went through is not BS.

I just wanted to give others an option to help them be able to reuse there plastics instead of the standard throw everything away and start over (like I was told to do).

< snipped to shorten thread >

Just kind of strange is all . I would think that HP would not kill anything much and bleach kills almost everything alive but does work best if diluted properly .
You never know . there are organisms that live in ammonia so something might just live in bleach also
Did you use Clorox or some store brand ? Was it old . It degrades into salt water .

anyone ever tried just using very strong salt water ?

 

[Denny's Evil Concoctions]

Peroxide that is used for industrial or agricultural use is not the same strength as the stuff you pour on your finger when you get a cut.

It's roughly 10 to 15 times stronger. (30 to 45%) Available at pool supply (if they deal with peroxide pools), hydroponics stores etc,. 1 gallon is about 20 bucks. And it is a bleach.. just a Base instead of an Acid.

 

[shtoive87]

No one has brought up the ice to cool down the starter. Is this store bought or preboiled? Store bought ice is definitely not guaranteed to be sanitized...

 

[Denny's Evil Concoctions]

No one has brought up the ice to cool down the starter. Is this store bought or preboiled? Store bought ice is definitely not guaranteed to be sanitized...

So True. Also, Ice can pick up bacteria etc from your freezer.

 

[WileECoyote]

Where did you buy hydrogen peroxide in such large quantity? 5 gallons of 50/50 is not a measly amount. You didn't go your local CVS and raided a shelf's worth, did you?

I think the pros use some sort of acid.

The local $1 store, yes I cleared the shelve lol

Cheers

 

[WileECoyote]

Just kind of strange is all . I would think that HP would not kill anything much and bleach kills almost everything alive but does work best if diluted properly .
You never know . there are organisms that live in ammonia so something might just live in bleach also
Did you use Clorox or some store brand ? Was it old . It degrades into salt water .

anyone ever tried just using very strong salt water ?

It was about a year ago so to be honest I can't be positive of what brand of Bleach it was, I think it was Clorox and I do remember my wife had to pick up a few gallons at the store for us to do the Bleach Bomb.

We also were shocked when the Bleach Bomb didn't work, in-fact I was so sure it was going to work that I brewed a 5 gal batch after the bleaching, big mistake on my part, then we switched out all brewing equipment and made mini batches and divided them down and tested old equipment (plastics) in them.

Thats how we figured out the Hydrogen Peroxide worked for sure.

I am still using some of plastic items that were soaked in the Hydrogen Peroxide and we are now around 25 batches down the road.

No infections so far, Knock on Wood, I never want to go thru that again.

Cheers

 

[eastoak]

It was about a year ago so to be honest I can't be positive of what brand of Bleach it was, I think it was Clorox and I do remember my wife had to pick up a few gallons at the store for us to do the Bleach Bomb.

We also were shocked when the Bleach Bomb didn't work, in-fact I was so sure it was going to work that I brewed a 5 gal batch after the bleaching, big mistake on my part, then we switched out all brewing equipment and made mini batches and divided them down and tested old equipment (plastics) in them.

Thats how we figured out the Hydrogen Peroxide worked for sure.

I am still using some of plastic items that were soaked in the Hydrogen Peroxide and we are now around 25 batches down the road.

No infections so far, Knock on Wood, I never want to go thru that again.

Cheers

you should have sent a sample of this infection to five star since their business is based on selling products that kill brewing bugs on contact. you discovered something that should scare five star.

 

[WileECoyote]

you should have sent a sample of this infection to five star since their business is based on selling products that kill brewing bugs on contact. you discovered something that should scare five star.

I still have about 12 gals of infected beer bottled up, and your right I probably should send a bottle or 2 to Five Star, but in reality and truthfully with everything I have going on I will probably never get around to doing it.

I guess I would have to contact 5 Star first to see if they would even be interested in me sending them a sample.

Cheers

 

[Brewtah]

I just had a Homer moment DOH! While cleaning a lid this morning it occured to me that I had never cleaned underneath the little grommet on the lid. I have bleached the lid, Star-saned the lid, but never physically cleaned under the grommet. I have had 2 acetobar infected batches, this could be it?

 

[petey_c]

Brewtah, I was thinking that the last time I cleaned my fermenter. I've never taken those gaskets out and cleaned underneath. I suppose it's possible. Now I've got to look into how to get them out without effin them up...

 

[WileECoyote]

you should have sent a sample of this infection to five star since their business is based on selling products that kill brewing bugs on contact. you discovered something that should scare five star.

I did not discover anything, LOTS of people have infections that StarSan dose nothing to.

:smack:

 

[WileECoyote]

i've seen where you claimed to have found a super bug immune to star san in another thread. if i were you i would contact five star about this, i'm sure they would be very interested.

I Never Claimed I found a super bug, You Did, and here is a copy of your statement.

"Quote" made by eastoak, >>> part of the reason i brew everything with the same gear is to see if there really is a superbug out there that can't be defeated by a cleaner and star san. if you have that bug i want it for sure.

 

[eastoak]

<crickets>

 

[WileECoyote]

<crickets>

If you have crickets, us them, go fishing.

 

[gbuttar]

Just a quick update

I brewed another IPA, and now after about two weeks in the primary I can see the same signs (came a little quicker this time) of infection - skin (looks like ice sheets) on the beer, sour smell and taste. Everything went very smooth, and I got signs (bubbles) of fermentation with 5 hours, and foam out of my blow-off tube after about 12 hours.

This time:
-using an immersion chiller, I got the wort from flame-out to fermenter in 18 minutes
-used only pre-boiled and then sanitized stainless steel equipment post boil
-did not use a starter
-did not pre-boil top off water (used store bought deer park, for the life of me I couldn't think of a way to pre-boil the water and let it cool without introducing a new infection variable, I trusted that the deer park sanitation practices were better than mine)
-no dry hops, eliminating them (at least for this batch) as a source

My only suspects left:
-airborne (unlikely? I haven't heard of too many people consistently getting airborne infections) - I also turned of my AC/fan on brew day
-top off water (unlikely? I have used deer park spring water every time from a sealed bottle which I dunk/spritzed with star san before adding)
-Glass carboy - the only remaining constant

My only new thought on the glass carboy: I knew the previous owner used to autoclave it and never had infection troubles. Although visually it appears to be in good shape, could the repeated autoclave treatments have caused microscopic fractures (bacteria havens) that my liquid sanitizers aren't reaching?

My plan:
-I'll buy a 3 gallon carboy (found some for only $20), and do a full boil batch (I've been wanting to try AG BIAB anyway, and this well help save some money on beer that may be destined for the drain), this will eliminate my 6 gallon glass carboy and the top of water, leaving just airborne, or me being a complete spaz on overlooking something essential (although based on replies following my initial post, I'm hoping that's not the case).

Any thoughts? Thanks again for all the replies.

 

[kev]

I still question deer park. May not be on the jug but in the water. Try using tap water. The whole autoclave thing that you mentioned could be suspect as well. Can't say for any certainty but.....

Instead of using the carboy did you try using a plastic fermenter? Could be a cheaper solution/ experiment. 2 - 3 gallon carboys = $40. 1 Plastic fermenter $20.

Just some thoughts. Hope it helps.
Cheers and good luck
Kev

 

[gbuttar]

Thanks for the advice - I found a 3 carboy gallon nearby for $25 I think, so I'll probably go with that. I thought about using plastic, but if it doesn't go well, I figured 1 glass carboy is still cheaper than two plastics (if I got another bad batch in a plastic bucket I don't know if I could trust it again, as it would be a new potential source), plus I can get ideal headspace for doing small batches that I can do a full boil on (no top off at all is what I'm shooting for) - my tap water tastes like a swimming pool

Thanks again, I'll post if I figure anything out

 

[eastoak]

have you taken ALL of your gear and given it a thorough cleaning and sanitizing? what type of hoses do you use, silicone or vinyl? any cooled wort going through a ball valve? plastic or glass does not matter as far as cleaning, many people are using plastic with no problems.

 

[gbuttar]

have you taken ALL of your gear and given it a thorough cleaning and sanitizing? what type of hoses do you use, silicone or vinyl? any cooled wort going through a ball valve? plastic or glass does not matter as far as cleaning, many people are using plastic with no problems.

I thoroughly clean/sanitize everything anyway, but for this last batch I replaced all my plastics. My thief & funnel are both stainless, and were cleaned, then boiled, and then submerged in fresh star san before use. My glass thermometer was boiled before use, then submerged in star san before use post boil. I cooled with a immersion chiller which was sanitized and then put in at 15 min remaining to sanitize. I use a glass carboy which was bleach bombed (1 cup/gallon) with fresh (new container) of clorox bleach after thorough cleaning/scrubbing/hot soak with oxy clean. My carboy and carboy cap were sanitized with iodophor, rinsed with distilled water and then sanitized with star san and left wet. My silicone blowoff tube was boiled, soaked in star san and assembled wet. I pitched with wyeast smack packs (no starter), and had them soaking in star san until ready to pitch. Fermentation started within 6 hrs.

This covers everything post boil - I did not strain, and dumped directly into the carboy using the SS funnel to eliminate sources (siphoning/nylon bag etc.)

I can't think of anything else to try, that's why I am considering the 3 gal batch - new carboy and no top off water to eliminate those last two - I know both theories are a little out there, but through process of elimination I can't come up with anything else. Airborne is the only other thing I could come up with on top of those. Thanks again for the help.

 

[Warmart]

I'm far from experienced, but thought I'd add my 2c. The only thing I see is the Deer Park water. I just can't imagine a glass carboy harboring bacteria, it goes against the main purpose of using glass. I don't think I would add any water to a fermenter unless it's been boiled.

I'm really sorry for what you're going through, I can imagine the frustration but it's good to see you're not letting it deter you.