Cost comparison-Extract vs. All-grain vs. Macrobrew

[Eves]

I am not sure how some measure the cost of their time. If I'm brewing when I have nothing else to do (no work, no family stuff, no home maintenance...) then I am not going to attribute any cost to my time brewing. Its not like I'd be getting paid for that time if I weren't brewing. Which leaves the cost of brewing to the ingredients and natural gas and there is just no way that any brew I've made is possibly as expensive as a similar microbrew that I can obtain near my home. Add in the fact that I just simply enjoy brewing and its a win win situation for me.


Again, if I were to try and brew a clone of a Miller High Life or something like that I'd bet that cost of ingredients and gas for the stove would exceed the cost buying the High Life in the store. But that is not the issue since I would do such a thing.

 

[Bobby_M]

It's just logically errant to ignore the cost of time for any activity since your time on earth is limited. When you enjoy brewing, it offsets the cost of your time. In fact, most of us like it so much, we'd spend time brewing with someone else even though we won't get most of the product.

If you didn't like brewing, it would be just like any other chore you don't like doing. I cut my own grass because the cost of the mower, maintenance and 4hrs/month of my time is worth less than what a landscaping company would charge me. It's getting pretty close though.

 

[olllllo]

If you're going to ignore capital costs and labor, then the most inexpensive way is to open your own bar.

 

[Eves]

It's just logically errant to ignore the cost of time for any activity since your time on earth is limited.

I place no value on my time doing useless things like watching the tv, goofing around on the internet, or anything of that sort. In theory all time has a value but when you have nothing of significance to do during an amount of time then I choose to place no value on that time. So anything I do in its place is therefore also not taking up time worth any value. Just the fact that I'm turning valueless time into time brewing for a hobby puts value into that time. But at that point it cannot be argued that that time spent brewing has had a cost since it had no cost previously.

 

[Bobby_M]

In summary, you don't value your time. Actually though, you absolutely do put a value on your time doing nothing. If you didn't value it, you would do something else. Just because an hour is spent apparently unproductive, it may be stress relief required in your weekly routine to raise productivity elsewhere.

To understand where I'm at with this, you have to understand the concept of opportunity costs. I'm fine with folks making blanket statements like "I don't care what brewing costs, I like to do it and I like the beer it produces". However, if you're the type that really wants to be analytical about the true costs of doing something vs. something else, all factors need to be considered period. At least that's the honest way of approaching it. Of course, if it's SWMBO asking about the numbers, go ahead and ignore all of the hidden costs.

 

[dontman]

It's just logically errant to ignore the cost of time for any activity since your time on earth is limited. When you enjoy brewing, it offsets the cost of your time. In fact, most of us like it so much, we'd spend time brewing with someone else even though we won't get most of the product.

If you didn't like brewing, it would be just like any other chore you don't like doing. I cut my own grass because the cost of the mower, maintenance and 4hrs/month of my time is worth less than what a landscaping company would charge me. It's getting pretty close though.

I bill my clients $X / hour and I work 45 hours / week. If I wanted I could find another 80 hours of billable time per week.

Two ways of looking at it the 5 hours of doing an all grain batch is costing me (5 * $X) + $22 ~ $325 / case of beer. Or the way I actually do look at it. I have a blast that completely absorbs me for 5 hours per week plus fills in other free time and hours of distraction and fun and it only costs me $22 per week. This would be a true bargain WITHOUT THE BEER!

 

[Bobby_M]

Right, you're completely acknowledging the opportunity costs and then making a decision. Great. At that large of an opportunity cost, you're literally saying that I'd rather brew than make another $325. The small cost of ingredients is negligible.

My argument in these threads is always about making sure you understand the real question. In the case of "is it cheaper to brew beer?", of course your answer would be no. Then you'd go add to that answer, "but I don't care what it costs because it's a blast".

 

[Eves]

In summary, you don't value your time. Actually though, you absolutely do put a value on your time doing nothing. If you didn't value it, you would do something else. Just because an hour is spent apparently unproductive, it may be stress relief required in your weekly routine to raise productivity elsewhere.

To understand where I'm at with this, you have to understand the concept of opportunity costs. I'm fine with folks making blanket statements like "I don't care what brewing costs, I like to do it and I like the beer it produces". However, if you're the type that really wants to be analytical about the true costs of doing something vs. something else, all factors need to be considered period. At least that's the honest way of approaching it. Of course, if it's SWMBO asking about the numbers, go ahead and ignore all of the hidden costs.

Actually I don't value all my time the same. So to use a blanket statement that I don't value my time is just false. When I say a specific amount of time has no value that is, of course, false. However, the amount of time I place of such time is so insigficant that it might as well be nothing.

Opportunity costs don't quite impact this particular time. What I mean is the time I brew is a time when I cannot work (salaried employee who is more than caught up with my work), its too late/early to do a number of household activities, its at a time when social activities cannot be done (4am just ain't social), I've already worked out, eaten..., my son is asleep, laundry is caught up, shopping just ain't happening (few open), I'm well rested.... Basically the times when I brew are almost always with few, if any, opportunities to do something else of value of any signficance.

 

[olllllo]

But you could be on the forum or reading on how to brew instead of brewing and now you'll have to do that some other time. If you bought beer, you would have that time to read or brew for that matter (doubling the amount of beer).

 

[Bobby_M]

The way to figure out if that time is worth something is to replace the activity you enjoy (brewing) with one you wouldn't. Let's say a batch of beer required you to clean dirty diapers for 3 hours straight. Why wouldn't you want to do that? Afterall, you've already done everything else you wanted to do for the day.

 

[BelgianWannabe]

Right, you're completely acknowledging the opportunity costs and then making a decision. Great. At that large of an opportunity cost, you're literally saying that I'd rather brew than make another $325. The small cost of ingredients is negligible.

My argument in these threads is always about making sure you understand the real question. In the case of "is it cheaper to brew beer?", of course your answer would be no. Then you'd go add to that answer, "but I don't care what it costs because it's a blast".

while i agree with you to an extent, i still say that it depends on what you are brewing.
you can definately brew a 5 gallon batch of a "Mephistopheles" clone for way less than the actual cost of buying two cases of "Mephistopheles" (or World Wide Stout, or DFH 120, or Newport Storm 01, or whatever your favorite high gravity, high cost brew is)

 

[Bobby_M]

I've already conceded that point earlier in the thread (or in one of the other hundred cost of homebrewing threads).

 

[BelgianWannabe]

I've already conceded that point earlier in the thread (or in one of the other hundred cost of homebrewing threads).

ah....i must have missed that.

there is a lot to read on this board.

 

[mrkeeg]

Just was talking to the owner of my favorite local micro-brewery (Amber's Brewing, Edmonton) and found out that if you come round on a brew day, they'll give you a 5 gallon pail of fresh wort for 20 bucks... just add yeast.

Yes, that takes away the challenge and interest of home brewing that is a lot of the appeal... but you are getting a fresh, all grain batch for $20 + yest, and the time it takes to pick it up...

Can't beat that for catching up to my empty taps, and the cost is obviously.. unbeatable?

 

[remilard]

When I say a specific amount of time has no value that is, of course, false. However, the amount of time I place of such time is so insigficant that it might as well be nothing.

Actions speak louder than words. I'm sure you could manage to land a part time job checking groceries for $10 an hour. If that is true, 5 hours of your time cannot possibly be worth less than $50 to you.

Time spent doing "nothing" is leisure time. A marginal hour of leisure time is more valuable than a marginal hour's worth of wages. Maybe you are salaried but if there is a Burger King in your town the marginal hour's wages is not $0.

 

[remilard]

while i agree with you to an extent, i still say that it depends on what you are brewing.
you can definately brew a 5 gallon batch of a "Mephistopheles" clone for way less than the actual cost of buying two cases of "Mephistopheles" (or World Wide Stout, or DFH 120, or Newport Storm 01, or whatever your favorite high gravity, high cost brew is)

If you mean that valuing your time at what you would make if you worked instead, that depends on how much you make.

Obviously everyone who brews values brewing the beer more than doing something else and buying it, or they wouldn't brew it.

If someone says they think brewing is a chore but they want to save money then I still think anyone bright enough to brew ought to be flipping burgers and buying at least their pale ales instead of brewing.

 

[zman]

and I thought I over analyzed stuff...lol

 

[Eves]

Actions speak louder than words. I'm sure you could manage to land a part time job checking groceries for $10 an hour. If that is true, 5 hours of your time cannot possibly be worth less than $50 to you.

Time spent doing "nothing" is leisure time. A marginal hour of leisure time is more valuable than a marginal hour's worth of wages. Maybe you are salaried but if there is a Burger King in your town the marginal hour's wages is not $0.

Are you suggesting that a person could find a job working about 3 hours straight between the hours of 4am - 7am or 9pm - 11pm, work that 3 hour shift just once every 3-6 weeks, and only start that shift on a day that they decide even if its a last minute decision?

Because thats how I brew. When I find myself waking up long before anyone else in the house I might decide to brew before I go to work. Or perhaps after my son has gone to bed, dinner is cleaned up, house is cleaned (some cleaning just wont occur at those hours), laundry is done... I will start up brewing. I've yet to brew on a schedule so I brew when I have nothing else on my plate. I cannot imagine any job where I could call up an employer at 4am or 9pm and tell them I'm coming in to work for 3 hours.

I have already conceeded that I agree that all time has 'some' value. However, the flexibility involved in the time in which I brew is such that that time's value is insigificant enough that I deem it valuless.

 

[remilard]

Are you suggesting that a person could find a job working about 3 hours straight between the hours of 4am - 7am or 9pm - 11pm, work that 3 hour shift just once every 3-6 weeks, and only start that shift on a day that they decide even if its a last minute decision?

Sure, anyone who is physically capable of brewing is physically capable of stuffing envelopes.

 

[Eves]

Sure, anyone who is physically capable of brewing is physically capable of stuffing envelopes.

You do realize that those "stuffing envolopes from home" things are scams, right? Truth be told it is not cost effective for any organization to have someone else do that work from home. In many cases people give up standard employment data like their SSN to get those so-called stuffing envelopes at home jobs. Then they make use of your SSN for whatever identity theft purposes they wish. Some of those 'opportunities' make you pay for some sort of 'start up kit' and then disappear after they get your money. It is a scam.

Next

 

[remilard]

You do realize that those "stuffing envolopes from home" things are scams, right?

Yes, I was using that as a proxy for work that can be done at home which does exist.

I have a coworker who bought a lawnmower from some guy who buys nonworking ones cheap and fixes them and resells them. If you could fix a lawnmower, you could do that according to the schedule you posted above.

I have no idea what you can do but I assume there is something.

 

[menschmaschine]

Maybe I'm not looking at this in depth enough, but to me it's simple. When I'm not working at my job, I'm not making money. I make enough money at my job to not have to do other things to make money. So, when I'm not "at work", then that time is MINE to do as I please and, no matter what I do, I'm not creating income. As far as doing things to SAVE income, (e.g., chopping firewood for heat or preventive maintenance on car to prolong its life), I have enough time to fit all those things in and to brew as well without encroaching on my time creating income (work). So, to me, the monetary cost of brew-time is nil.

 

[Eves]

Yes, I was using that as a proxy for work that can be done at home which does exist.

I have a coworker who bought a lawnmower from some guy who buys nonworking ones cheap and fixes them and resells them. If you could fix a lawnmower, you could do that according to the schedule you posted above.

I have no idea what you can do but I assume there is something.

You might be surprised how untalented I am

 

[TXCrash]

An economist and a friend walk into the bar...

But what does that time at the bar cost? ;-)

 

[Bobby_M]

Maybe I'm not looking at this in depth enough, but to me it's simple. When I'm not working at my job, I'm not making money. I make enough money at my job to not have to do other things to make money. So, when I'm not "at work", then that time is MINE to do as I please and, no matter what I do, I'm not creating income. As far as doing things to SAVE income, (e.g., chopping firewood for heat or preventive maintenance on car to prolong its life), I have enough time to fit all those things in and to brew as well without encroaching on my time creating income (work). So, to me, the monetary cost of brew-time is nil.

Only because you LIKE brewing. I'm a broken record on this one of course. Any time spent doing one thing is time spent NOT doing another thing. If that other thing has the potential of benefiting you (of course it does whether it's economic, spiritual, etc) then that is the "cost" of not doing it. Sleeping late means not cleaning the dishes. Just because that alternative activity is not pounding down your door (like a boss practically begging you to work 2 hours of overtime) doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

It's easy to think of your own personal situation and write off opportunity. There's ALWAYS something else you can be, ought to be doing. You could be taking online college courses that will ultimately increase your income potential. If that degree or certification is worth 300k over the life of your career, that's the cost of not taking the classes.

Again, just because you decide NOT to do something else doesn't mean it isn't costing you something.

 

[remilard]

I think we are all just talking past each other but I think meschmaschine makes a good point when he says that he makes enough money in the time he works.

All of us need money to buy food and shelter and otherwise provide the standard of life that we choose. The vast majority of us need to work our first hour to meet those obligations and so at that point, leisure time is too expensive because it would cause us to lose our desired lifestyle.

At some point we choose not to work another hour (or not get another degree or not kill ourselves for another promotion or whatever) because we are satisfied with our lifestyle and that extra $X we could get for working another hour is now worth less to us in terms of what it can buy than an extra hour of leisure.

While there are arguments that brewing beer can save money, especially in terms of viewing equipment costs as sunk and comparing only the cost of ingredients to the cost of comparable commercial beer, I would argue that most people would not brew if they did not enjoy it, as evidenced by the fact that many people who are by no means rich choose to hire out lawn work or eat out instead of at home. Most people try to get out of at least some of the work they could possibly do by paying someone to do it (which is why we have service industries) and not making your own alcohol is an excellent chore to avoid if you view it as a chore.