Control Panel: PIDs and Switches, or one large touch LCD?

[kal]

For example, I am an early brewer. I set my alarm to wake up early, use my smartphone to turn on the element and recirc pump to heat my strike water.

If I wanted to start a brew session from my office PC at work - it's possible.

If you do build something like this, make sure it has tons of safety features built in. You don't want to burn your house down because a hose popped off or was loose (or similar).

Kal

 

[ryanryates]

If you do build something like this, make sure it has tons of safety features built in. You don't want to burn your house down because a hose popped off or was loose (or similar).

Kal

AGREE! Despite the fact that I have safety features built in, I take safety very seriously. An operating a gas based system should not be left unattended.

 

[passedpawn]

So, one of the other great advantages to the BCS system is that I can control the entire operation from multiple devices. For example, I am an early brewer. I set my alarm to wake up early, use my smartphone to turn on the element and recirc pump to heat my strike water. By the time I get up, dressed, coffee, etc. my strike water is on its way to temp.

Another example, I can program my recipe (times, temps, etc) from my office pc - rather than on the brewery touchscreen interface.

Lastly, (not that I use this feature, but I could if I wanted) with IP forwarding, I can access my BCS from anywhere in the world. If I wanted to start a brew session from my office PC at work - it's possible. A better use for this access feature is for remote monitoring and control of fermentation vessels and glycol system.

So many possibilities!

I'm an early morning brewer too. I get everything set up the night before, including setting the strike water temp and starting the pump. Then I just switch off the main power switch. In the early dark AM, on my way to the coffee pot, I flick the power on and off it goes. I don't think I'd feel comfortable starting it remotely. Once everything is running fine, I walk away.

I'm not a luddite - I do like technology. But I'm not looking to build too much automation into this system, and (in this application) I prefer knobs and switches over a touchscreen.

 

[kal]

I tend to get everything set up the night before as well (milling the grain, measuring the hops and water adjustments).

If I really want to get a kick start to the brewing day I'll pre-heat the HLT water (usually ~20 gallons as I brew 10 gallon batches) to about 15 degrees above my strike temp the night before as well then turn it all off and throw a towel or two on the HLT lid (my HLT isn't insulated but most heat is lost straight up). By the next morning the water's only dropped about 20 degrees or so, so it only takes a couple of minutes to get back up to strike temp and I'm doughing in....

Kal

 

[ryanryates]

Kal, I don't know is why I've never thought of that. That's a great idea. My MLT is insulated and I'm sure would hold the heat well overnight.

 

[passedpawn]

Kal, I don't know is why I've never thought of that. That's a great idea. My MLT is insulated and I'm sure would hold the heat well overnight.

If your mash tun is well insulated, consider an overnight mash. Will save you another hour. Be forewarned that the mash will be very fermentable after a long rest like that, so expect 85 - 90% fermentability.

 

[augiedoggy]

AGREE! Despite the fact that I have safety features built in, I take safety very seriously. An operating a gas based system should not be left unattended.

I had a 20a 240v nema connector just decide after 4 years to have a meltdown (literally) while I was downstairs caramelizing some wort for a traquiar ... the worse part about it is it only had a 17 amp element plugged into it, and the switchcraft connector at the other end where it meets my control panel was fine... go figure... all I can think of it the wire somehow got tugged loose and created a bad connection. It was pretty scary! especially after 4 years or reliable operation.

 

[BrunDog]

Eek!

 

[kal]

I had a 20a 240v nema connector just decide after 4 years to have a meltdown (literally) while I was downstairs caramelizing some wort for a traquiar ... the worse part about it is it only had a 17 amp element plugged into it, and the switchcraft connector at the other end where it meets my control panel was fine... go figure... all I can think of it the wire somehow got tugged loose and created a bad connection. It was pretty scary! especially after 4 years or reliable operation.

Heat is created when current flows through an area that is too small to handle the amount of current. This can happen:

(a) with a loose connection where only a few strands are making contact because the wire is not properly tightened/fastened, and/or
(b) a wire that is too small to handle the current is used, and/or
(c) when a properly sized wire is used but some of the copper strands were cut/trimmed to get it to fit (this should never be done), or
(d) if an electrical socket or blade is dirty or charred or if the plug is not pushed and locked in properly with the receptacle.

All of these cases effectively reduce the contact area meaning that more current flows through a smaller area which in turns creates more heat which can melt the insulation on wires and damage nearby components.

So it's not the amount of current being pulled through the entire cord and both plugs exactly, it's because the area through the problematic plug had been reduced somehow to the point where the current was too much for the connection point to hanel. So it's completely normal that the other SwitchCraft end was fine since the area through which the current was flowing wasn't affected.

This is a fairly common problem for those that go the DIY route. Make sure all high current connection points are tight, make sure to use *ALL* of the wire strands. I like to screw the wire tight and then twist/turn/pull it to confirm, then tighten again. Use good quality industrial nylon plugs and receptacles too. I like Leviton (USA made). Some of the Chinese junk is well, exactly that: Junk. It's much easier to have a poor connection or a connection go loose over the years.

Kal

 

[BrunDog]

Heat is created when current flows through an area that is too small to handle the amount of current.

I know you know, but for those who don't... Technically, heat is created when current flows through an area of resistance. His connection likely increased in resistance due to corrosion, or a weakened crimp from mechanical or thermal cycling over time. I think this is or will be a common problem for many eventually...

 

[passedpawn]

I had a crimped faston burn up after a couple of years in service inside my panel. Not sure how it got loosened up. Maybe hot/cold cycles fatigued the metal.

My new panel will have very little wire at all. I've got to mind PCB trace widths / copper weight for 30A though

 

[doug293cz]

I had a crimped faston burn up after a couple of years in service inside my panel. Not sure how it got loosened up. Maybe hot/cold cycles fatigued the metal.

My new panel will have very little wire at all. I've got to mind PCB trace widths / copper weight for 30A though

So, what kind of trace cross sectional area are you using for 30A? I know 2A thru a 240 sq um (0.37 sq mil) is too much (but I can't tell you why I know.)

Brew on

 

[passedpawn]

So, what kind of trace cross sectional area are you using for 30A? I know 2A thru a 240 sq um (0.37 sq mil) is too much (but I can't tell you why I know.)

Brew on

My design criteria is to keep the trace temperature (due to I^2*R heating) below 20C above ambient.

If I go with 5 ounce (oz/sqft) copper plating, I only need trace widths of about 0.120" (that's for 23A). 5oz copper is not good for digital stuff because the min trace width is relatively large, and you couldn't route traces to processors and such, so I'm going to put the high-volt and high-amp stuff on a separate board that will plug into the main digital board. That gives me the added advantage of just changing this module to support, say, a 50A system if I ever run the wire for it.

If I did't mention it before, the SSRs are PCB version that solder right into the PCB. No wires. Datasheet here: Crydom LR600240D40

 

[doug293cz]

My design criteria is to keep the trace temperature (due to I^2*R heating) below 20C above ambient.

If I go with 5 ounce (oz/sqft) copper plating, I only need trace widths of about 0.120" (that's for 23A). 5oz copper is not good for digital stuff because the min trace width is relatively large, and you couldn't route traces to processors and such, so I'm going to put the high-volt and high-amp stuff on a separate board that will plug into the main digital board. That gives me the added advantage of just changing this module to support, say, a 50A system if I ever run the wire for it.

If I did't mention it before, the SSRs are PCB version that solder right into the PCB. No wires. Datasheet here: Crydom LR600240D40

5 oz Cu at LSL thickness of 0.0012"/oz is about 6 mi thick. Times 120 mil width is 720 mil^2 or 0.46 mm^2. This is somewhere between 21AWG and 20AWG. And yet, based on actual PWB current carrying experiments (that I can't provide details on) your design seems conservative. Curious. Be interesting to see what your actual temp rise is in operation. Have you got enough extra area on your board to put in about a 0.5" x 0.5" serpentine @ 0.120" lines and 0.120" spaces. This could be a good target for an IR thermometer, which would allow measuring actual temp rise.

Brew on

 

[passedpawn]

5 oz Cu at LSL thickness of 0.0012"/oz is about 6 mi thick. Times 120 mil width is 720 mil^2 or 0.46 mm^2. This is somewhere between 21AWG and 20AWG. And yet, based on actual PWB current carrying experiments (that I can't provide details on) your design seems conservative. Curious. Be interesting to see what your actual temp rise is in operation. Have you got enough extra area on your board to put in about a 0.5" x 0.5" serpentine @ 0.120" lines and 0.120" spaces. This could be a good target for an IR thermometer, which would allow measuring actual temp rise.

Brew on

Search IPC-2221. There are online calculators. This would be a two-sided PCB, so no internal routing.

I will have an RTD on the main (digital) board, but that will just be for diagnostics. Might display that number on a PC app when I get around to making that. The power board will be getting plenty hot just with the SSRs on there.

 

[augiedoggy]

Heat is created when current flows through an area that is too small to handle the amount of current. This can happen:

(a) with a loose connection where only a few strands are making contact because the wire is not properly tightened/fastened, and/or
(b) a wire that is too small to handle the current is used, and/or
(c) when a properly sized wire is used but some of the copper strands were cut/trimmed to get it to fit (this should never be done), or
(d) if an electrical socket or blade is dirty or charred or if the plug is not pushed and locked in properly with the receptacle.

All of these cases effectively reduce the contact area meaning that more current flows through a smaller area which in turns creates more heat which can melt the insulation on wires and damage nearby components.

So it's not the amount of current being pulled through the entire cord and both plugs exactly, it's because the area through the problematic plug had been reduced somehow to the point where the current was too much for the connection point to hanel. So it's completely normal that the other SwitchCraft end was fine since the area through which the current was flowing wasn't affected.

This is a fairly common problem for those that go the DIY route. Make sure all high current connection points are tight, make sure to use *ALL* of the wire strands. I like to screw the wire tight and then twist/turn/pull it to confirm, then tighten again. Use good quality industrial nylon plugs and receptacles too. I like Leviton (USA made). Some of the Chinese junk is well, exactly that: Junk. It's much easier to have a poor connection or a connection go loose over the years.

Kal

They were quality plugs I bought them at the home depot... They were probably one of the only things I didnt source from a chinese supplier besides the enclosure and wire so that stereotype didnt hold true here.

For the record I do understand what likely caused. I see these types of failures at work once in a while.
Reason I thought it was ironic was that it was the 20a nema connectors and not the switchcraft ones because a lot of folks were against using the switchcraft ones stating that proper nema connectors should be used and the switchcraft would not likely stand up to the amperage well. (even though they are rated at 30A)
The plug that burned up was my HLT element plug which rarely got touched unlike the BK plug which was always unplugged and tugged on after every brew. it was strange because they wiring was pretty tightlen connected even when I pulled it apart to investigate. one hot line had failed though and the copper wire looked a bit darker where it was srewed down so the connection might have some=how oxidized from heat/ expansion contraction I dont really know at this point.
Ill be soldering my replacements on my new panel though.

I have yet to check the element since I swapped it with the old chinese 4500w watt element from my boil kettle that I bought from your site.
it was an apcom brand I believe and an american made element.. it looks fine but I was in the middle of a brew and didnt want to take chances.

 

[kal]

Reason I thought it was ironic was that it was the 20a nema connectors and not the switchcraft ones because a lot of folks were against using the switchcraft ones stating that proper nema connectors should be used and the switchcraft would not likely stand up to the amperage well. (even though they are rated at 30A)

Ha! Yeah, I noticed the same when you wrote it but didn't want to say anything...

I have yet to check the element since I swapped it with the old chinese 4500w watt element from my boil kettle that I bought from your site.
it was an apcom brand I believe and an american made element.. it looks fine but I was in the middle of a brew and didnt want to take chances.

Makes sense!

FWIW It's good to check any high current connection points from time to time, just to be sure.

Kal

 

[jcav]

Love this thread! You electronic geniuses on this forum are amazing and you're blowing my mind with your lingo, logic and capabilities! All I can say is Andrew doesn't do anything half a$$ and that is going to be one awesome control panel when it is finished. Photos of the progress would be good too... hint hint!

John

 

[passedpawn]

Love this thread! You electronic geniuses on this forum are amazing and your blowing my mind with your lingo, logic and capabilities! All I can say is Andrew doesn't do anything half a$$ and that is going to be one awesome control panel when it is finished. Photos of the progress would be good too... hint hint!

John

Haha. ^^ This guy is my neighbor. Love you John.

You know there will be pics. I'm messing with the schematic now in my evenings. I'll be laying out the PCB in the next week or two, buying parts, assembly, etc. Then the fun part: firmware. Probably won't be useful pictures till the summer. If it comes in as I expect though, should be epic! (for me)

 

[jcav]

Trust me it will be Epic for us too!

John

 

[MrShake]

I'll add my 2 cents. I didn't read the entire post (brand new twins in the house don't leave me with a lot of free time). But my take on it is the flexibility of a micro controller based system (BrewTroller, BCS, etc) is a huge draw for me. Systems like KAL's are great, and work BEAUTIFULLY, but the geek in me loves the ability to interface in multiple ways, add logic and automation between steps, and generally have the flexibility to do some really advanced things.

In the end, its what you want to do, costs really are about the same, so its all about personal preference.

Full Disclosure, I am biased

 

[BrunDog]

Congrats on twins!!

 

[MrShake]

Congrats on twins!!

Thanks man, I appreciate it!

 

[berlinguyinca]

Darn you for making me second-guess myself even more, passedpawn.

My last HERMs system was PID based, albeit cobbled together in a plastic tool box. It was about as simple (and probably unsafe) as you could get. A single PID, single relay, one outlet. I'd just shut off spa panel, unplug HLT, plug in BK, turn on spa panel and set PID to manual. It made beer.

While planning my new HERMs and brewing space I went back and forth between control panel PID or software based (Doug's SBE or CraftBeerPi). I figured I'd stick with PID based because it had been reliable for me previously and being in IT for a career, I didn't really need more bits and bytes to tend to.

Lately I've been second-guessing that approach and thinking that if I can convince myself of SBE or CBP reliability I might go that route, mainly for flexibility and it would just fit my brew space better than a wall-mounted or table-top control panel.

Maybe I should try both and alternate using until I settle on one. I've started a new panel already based on the PJ diagram below.

what software do you use to draw these diagrams?