Conical or ferm chamber

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Irish1225

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2009
Messages
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Location
WI
Hey everyone. I used to be a little more active about 10 years ago, but I am glad to see this place is still very helpful and growing! I still come back and stalk around :)

Been doing the homebrewing thing on-and-off for about 10 years now (more on- than off-), and most recently this year already brewed 20 gallons (I do 5 gallon batches). I have "upgraded" my boil kettle to a Spike and love it.

Man, there has been so much change in the last 10 years in all the equipment available. I mean, I can't believe you can get a completely wired with outlets temperature controller for $30 on Amazon. I originally got my kegerator to temp by tweaking the fine adjustment thermostat screw over a period of 10 days to get the right temp in the freezer lol.

So now seeing all this new stuff, and I've always wanted to brew some lagers and cold-crash more frequently (my only method of cold crashing is my kegerator; if I have 2 or more kegs in there, there's no way to fit my fermenter in there so I just mostly skip it), I'm looking into either a conical or ferm chamber.

Now, I may be making excuses to have some money burn a hole in my pocket, and although a new shiny stainless conical might not make my beer better, I do expect that good temperature control for both fermentation and crashing would actually make measurably better beer. I would likely be considering the stainless conical options with the integrated cooling coils to manage temperature.

Pros for a conical: less space needed compared to a new fridge/freezer, stainless fermenter that is easy to clean/sanitize, one piece of equipment to primary/age/condition/carb/cold crash/closed transfer
Cons for a conical: more expensive compared to a new fridge/freezer

Pros for a ferm chamber: less cost to get many of the benefits I'm looking for
Cons for a ferm chamber: not getting all the features of a conical, larger real estate needed in my already small brewing space, adding another refrigerated box that needs to be cleaned and monitored for microbial growth...

To those of you with conicals - do you swear by them, and would you do it again? Which route would you go?
 
I love my unitank but feel a non pressurable conical is a waste. One thing to remember with a conical however is your gonna need something to cool the coil in the conical. Most do a diy glycol chiller but most I've seen are the basically the same size as a chest freezer so your actually possible using up more floor space if that's a concern. Additionally you have to deal with pumps/controllers and maintenance on the chiller. I personally use a stand up freezer with the conical inside. It's easy, efficient, and was cheap. Plus its basically the same size as the conical so no wasted floor space. Cheers
 
I like my conical but it's more work and more time than my simple Bigmouth Bubbler is. I just kegged a beer tonite from my Spike CF10, then cleaned it. Well over 90 minutes to do that. To clean my BmB takes about 7 minutes maybe.

As far as space: it doesn't have to be a lot. You can store your fermenter IN the ferm chamber when not using it. I'm including a pic of one of my ferm chambers; doesn't use up much space at all.

And @Blazinlow86 is right--you need a way to cool a conical, and yes, you can DIY it, but that'll take a unit of some sort, and that'll take some room.

I have a conical so I can at least partially pressurize it, allowing the beer to carbonate itself, and to eliminate intrusion of oxygen. But in the end, a good one is pricey, very pricey, and the accoutrements needed to get the most out of it are pricey as well.

minifermchamber.jpg
 
Thank you both for your replies so far! I’d love to hear what other people think, too.

I didn’t imagine that one of those “dorm room” fridges could fit a bucket - I’ll have to do some careful measuring.

Mongoose - I love your setup and have researched a lot of your DIY threads. I wanted to try the aquarium pump/glycol reservoir in my existing kegerator if I went the conical route.

I absolutely realize this could be a $150-200 fridge purchase versus a $650+ Spike CF5 purchase, and I need to do some research on the other benefits brought to the table by using conicals (pressurized fermentation, carbing in the same vessel, etc...).

The “buy one and done” benefit is nice, too.
 
I have to say that I like using my conical over carboys, even the Bigmouth Bubblers I have. It is more involved for setup and cleaning BUT... Its stainless and easier to clean at the same time because of its durability. I hated cleaning my Better Bottles. And while the Bigmouth Bubblers are easier to clean, I still fear scratching them if having to work on a stubborn krausen ring...

Kegging from it is a breeze too, no more lifting carboys and futzing with an auto-siphon etc. I just attach a hose to the racking arm and open the valve!

If space is a concern then it might not be the way to go for you. I'm fortunate that I have room for the upright freezer ($200.00 used) I use as a fermchamber for my conical. I opted out of going the glycol route for several reasons including cost and concern for my high ambient temps during the summer. The upright freezer seemed more cost effective and "likely to succeed" for me.
 
Thank you both for your replies so far! I’d love to hear what other people think, too.

I didn’t imagine that one of those “dorm room” fridges could fit a bucket - I’ll have to do some careful measuring.

Mongoose - I love your setup and have researched a lot of your DIY threads. I wanted to try the aquarium pump/glycol reservoir in my existing kegerator if I went the conical route.

I absolutely realize this could be a $150-200 fridge purchase versus a $650+ Spike CF5 purchase, and I need to do some research on the other benefits brought to the table by using conicals (pressurized fermentation, carbing in the same vessel, etc...).

The “buy one and done” benefit is nice, too.

I did a ton of experimenting with the DIY glycol thing in the freezer compartment of my ferm chamber refrigerator. Some things I learned:

1. It was more than adequate to hold fermentation temps, even down to 50 degrees for a lager. Would it work in a kegerator? Depends on how cold you can get that, but I suspect it would be fine.

2. While I was able to get temps in my conical down to 40 degrees, that was about it. The way I did it wasn't enough for a good crash. Further, the recovery of the reservoir is nowhere near what my penguin can do, so it's slower.

3. Occasionally the refrigerator would go into auto-defrost mode, which warmed up the freezer compartment a bit. This is one reason why it's slower than one might expect; depends on when it wants to do that. There was never any frost in the freezer compartment, but the refrigerator didn't know that. :) I don't think this would be an issue at all with a kegerator.

4. You have to insulate the conical at least to some degree, depending on ambient conditions. Lots of stuff sticking out of a conical (legs, handles, ports, etc.) and all of it wicks heat back into the wort. The more you can insulate it or the colder ambient temperature is, the better your DIY solution will work.
 
Awesome stuff!

I currently just use ale pails so when I mention space considerations, I am giving conicals the benefit of the doubt where it's a "similar" size to a bucket. I already have buckets fermenting on the basement floor and could swap the space with a conical, I imagine. My hesitation with a ferm chamber would be if I had to buy another chest freezer - there's not quite that much room available in the "brew room" (read: quartered-off utility room with the furnace/water heater, maybe 10x10, so far furnace heat hasn't been an issue with ambient temps).

Ambient temp in the winter down there is around 63*F, and it's dry here in WI in the winter. Summer time gets up to 69*F I would expect, but a little more humid (dehumidifier is always set down there for 40% humidity).

I am also trying to find ways around lifting and moving 5gallons of beer, Nagorg! I grew very tired of carrying the boil kettle inside after cooling and lifting it on the kitchen counter to gravity feed into a bucket. Now I have the leg extensions on my burner outside and gravity feed out there through the hole in the bucket lid. If I went with a conical, I would probably continue doing that and just gravity feed off the kegerator in the basement into the conical (still would have to do some 3-foot lifting).

I'm surprised to hear that 40*F isn't cold enough for cold-crashing. When I have had space in the kegerator, I would drop the bucket in there to cold crash. I have it holding liquid temps at 38*F currently. So I guess cold crashing would be one of the conical benefits I don't get to fully realize with my plans to use the compressor shelf in the kegerator for a reservoir.

I picked up that Brewing Classic Styles book that I kept seeing recommended on here and it was a great read. I love brewing German beers, and I can't believe I went 10 years just being happy with fermenting around 68*F ambient temp not knowing that German and other styles prefer temps in the 50's, which has led me to this current project.

If I go with the dorm room fridge, I will have to find a way to get accurate vessel temp readings from a bucket. Is adding a weldless thermowell bulkhead to a bucket a common project?
 
Awesome stuff!

I currently just use ale pails so when I mention space considerations, I am giving conicals the benefit of the doubt where it's a "similar" size to a bucket. I already have buckets fermenting on the basement floor and could swap the space with a conical, I imagine. My hesitation with a ferm chamber would be if I had to buy another chest freezer - there's not quite that much room available in the "brew room" (read: quartered-off utility room with the furnace/water heater, maybe 10x10, so far furnace heat hasn't been an issue with ambient temps).

There are lots of ways to gain extra room. Put empty fermenters on top of the refrigerator. Put shelves in.

I personally wouldn't use a chest freezer for a ferm chamber, primarily to avoid lifting fermenters in and out. A used refrigerator would be much better--again, IMO, and it may be different for you.

I was able to get two fermenters in my medium-sized refrigerator/ferm chamber (see pic below) and was able to have two fermentations going at the same time, provided I staggered them by about 3 days.

A refrigerator offers other benefits to me. I have a freezer compartment I can use for chilling bottles prior to filling them off the keezer. I can use the refrigerator as a backup to household refrigerator. I can put a keg in there and force-carb it, or I can simply keep it cold and if my keezer is full, serve out of there with a picnic tap.

Ambient temp in the winter down there is around 63*F, and it's dry here in WI in the winter. Summer time gets up to 69*F I would expect, but a little more humid (dehumidifier is always set down there for 40% humidity).

Don't forget that yeast is exothermic and can add 5-10 degrees F to the ambient temperature. So you might think you're at 69 when the wort is actually 74-79. In that context, if I didn't have a ferm chamber, I'd be using a swamp cooler to mitigate those temperature gains.

I am also trying to find ways around lifting and moving 5gallons of beer, Nagorg! I grew very tired of carrying the boil kettle inside after cooling and lifting it on the kitchen counter to gravity feed into a bucket. Now I have the leg extensions on my burner outside and gravity feed out there through the hole in the bucket lid. If I went with a conical, I would probably continue doing that and just gravity feed off the kegerator in the basement into the conical (still would have to do some 3-foot lifting).

This is where pumps come in handy. I know some of this can be a resource issue, but sometimes you have to weigh the expense against, say, your back. I've had two back operations and while I can lift 60-70 pounds, I'm thinking in the long run that isn't going to last.

I'm surprised to hear that 40*F isn't cold enough for cold-crashing. When I have had space in the kegerator, I would drop the bucket in there to cold crash. I have it holding liquid temps at 38*F currently. So I guess cold crashing would be one of the conical benefits I don't get to fully realize with my plans to use the compressor shelf in the kegerator for a reservoir.

The problem is offsetting the heat gain to the fermenter. I just kegged a beer last night I'd cold-crashed in my conical using the Penguin. Temp of the glycol solution was 28 degrees, garage temp was 50 degrees. The best I could do with it was 36 degrees, and mostly it was in the 37-38 range. I figure generally I can't get the crashed wort below about 10 degrees above the glycol temp.

Now, if you're using a freezer or refrigerator, it will take it down to whatever temp you set, after about 24 hours. But the ambient in the freezer is, well, whatever temp you set. In my garage, I'm not that cold, so the fermenter is collecting ambient heat and warming the wort. The chililng has to offset that. In essence, my ambient temps provide a 10-degree heat load over the glycol, and that's just that.

I've tried a variety of ways to overcome that--wrapping the fermenter in a moving blanket to insulate it, using reflectix to insulate all the protuberances, even built a small "closet" into which I directed the cold air from a window air conditioner. None of those approaches were particularly effective.

I have one more idea to try that I think will work. I want to build a box around my fermenter composed of 2"-thick foamboard insulation. That should limit ambient temp gains and overcome the problem of the air conditioner approach, which was 'warm' air (at 50-55 degrees) constantly "warming" the fermenter while I was trying to crash it to 32.

I have to figure a way to cut the foam board insulation squarely. When I figure that out, I'm on it.

If I go with the dorm room fridge, I will have to find a way to get accurate vessel temp readings from a bucket. Is adding a weldless thermowell bulkhead to a bucket a common project?

Not really, but you don't need to get that fancy. You'll need a controller to manage temps. I suggest the Inkbird 308. I have 5 of them, which should tell you what I think of them. :)

Anyway, place the probe against the bucket using something like a piece of styrofoam or closed-cell foam to hold it there. The foam will insulate the probe from ambient, and cause it to pick up the temp of the wort in the fermenter.

You can see that above in my pic of the mini ferm chamber; the probe is under the pink foam, which is held there with the bungee cord.

I cut a small channel in the foam to accommodate the probe, like so:

probefoam.jpg

Here's a pic showing two fermenters in my large fridge ferm chamber. You can see the foam holding the probes against them, one blue, one pink. No gender bias here!


fermchamber2c.jpg


Some of my failed attempts:

tinman.jpg closet.jpg conicalblanket.jpg
 
Hey everyone. I used to be a little more active about 10 years ago, but I am glad to see this place is still very helpful and growing! I still come back and stalk around :)

Been doing the homebrewing thing on-and-off for about 10 years now (more on- than off-), and most recently this year already brewed 20 gallons (I do 5 gallon batches). I have "upgraded" my boil kettle to a Spike and love it.

Man, there has been so much change in the last 10 years in all the equipment available. I mean, I can't believe you can get a completely wired with outlets temperature controller for $30 on Amazon. I originally got my kegerator to temp by tweaking the fine adjustment thermostat screw over a period of 10 days to get the right temp in the freezer lol.

So now seeing all this new stuff, and I've always wanted to brew some lagers and cold-crash more frequently (my only method of cold crashing is my kegerator; if I have 2 or more kegs in there, there's no way to fit my fermenter in there so I just mostly skip it), I'm looking into either a conical or ferm chamber.

Now, I may be making excuses to have some money burn a hole in my pocket, and although a new shiny stainless conical might not make my beer better, I do expect that good temperature control for both fermentation and crashing would actually make measurably better beer. I would likely be considering the stainless conical options with the integrated cooling coils to manage temperature.

Pros for a conical: less space needed compared to a new fridge/freezer, stainless fermenter that is easy to clean/sanitize, one piece of equipment to primary/age/condition/carb/cold crash/closed transfer
Cons for a conical: more expensive compared to a new fridge/freezer

Pros for a ferm chamber: less cost to get many of the benefits I'm looking for
Cons for a ferm chamber: not getting all the features of a conical, larger real estate needed in my already small brewing space, adding another refrigerated box that needs to be cleaned and monitored for microbial growth...

To those of you with conicals - do you swear by them, and would you do it again? Which route would you go?

you couldn't pay me to go back. the problem is now i need another one.
 
Hey everyone. I used to be a little more active about 10 years ago, but I am glad to see this place is still very helpful and growing! I still come back and stalk around :)

Been doing the homebrewing thing on-and-off for about 10 years now (more on- than off-), and most recently this year already brewed 20 gallons (I do 5 gallon batches). I have "upgraded" my boil kettle to a Spike and love it.

Man, there has been so much change in the last 10 years in all the equipment available. I mean, I can't believe you can get a completely wired with outlets temperature controller for $30 on Amazon. I originally got my kegerator to temp by tweaking the fine adjustment thermostat screw over a period of 10 days to get the right temp in the freezer lol.

So now seeing all this new stuff, and I've always wanted to brew some lagers and cold-crash more frequently (my only method of cold crashing is my kegerator; if I have 2 or more kegs in there, there's no way to fit my fermenter in there so I just mostly skip it), I'm looking into either a conical or ferm chamber.

Now, I may be making excuses to have some money burn a hole in my pocket, and although a new shiny stainless conical might not make my beer better, I do expect that good temperature control for both fermentation and crashing would actually make measurably better beer. I would likely be considering the stainless conical options with the integrated cooling coils to manage temperature.

Pros for a conical: less space needed compared to a new fridge/freezer, stainless fermenter that is easy to clean/sanitize, one piece of equipment to primary/age/condition/carb/cold crash/closed transfer
Cons for a conical: more expensive compared to a new fridge/freezer

Pros for a ferm chamber: less cost to get many of the benefits I'm looking for
Cons for a ferm chamber: not getting all the features of a conical, larger real estate needed in my already small brewing space, adding another refrigerated box that needs to be cleaned and monitored for microbial growth...

To those of you with conicals - do you swear by them, and would you do it again? Which route would you go?
I went through a similar decision recently--initially I planned to get a conical and a chiller. But when my brew system build went wildly over-budget, I decided to take advantage of the small army of corny kegs I have and ferment in those, a la schematix's thread. They involve their own list of compromises (e.g. you will never get a full 5g of beer in your keg if your fermenter is 5.2 gallons to the tippy tippy top), but they are inexpensive, hold pressure, and are darn near indestructible. My only problem was finding a mini fridge that could hold a corny keg or two without serious modifications, like cutting plastic molding out of the door. I finally found this Haier beverage cooler, which holds two corny kegs without modification. It also has the distinct advantage (for me) of having an analog thermostat that is very easily bypassed so that I could control it using Fermentrack.
IMG_4286.jpg
 
The fact that I'm probably fermenting 5-8*F higher than ambient is why I'm on this new project. I see that affixing the probe to the side of the bucket is probably "close enough" for vessel temperature. I was worried about how to get a good reading on the fermentation temperature expecting that the ambient cooler temp could be 5*F higher than the internal temperature of a fermentation vessel.

And adman, I have considered that, as well, thank you! But I wouldn't want to go any smaller than 5 gallons, and I would have to purchase additional kegs and another fridge/freezer; I would probably be in $300 at that point and I could convince myself to spend a little more and get a conical and chilling coil.

And my whole "extra space" argument was considering a new chest freezer purchase - there is no way to rearrange the space to get another chest freezer in there. However, the dorm room fridge sounds like a VERY appealing option here and I am leaning that way.

What is everyone's preferred dorm room fridge for a ferm chamber?! lol
 
I have my CF10 housed in an upright freezer (purchased used for $200) which I had to shave the door. I choose this method as opposed to a glycol system since I was planning on only having one conical. Since the upright freezer is controlled by an inkbird, I used that as a sales pitch to the wife stating that I can convert it to a freezer or fridge if needed for parties. When not in use, I keep the door propped open to prevent mold. It is also equipped with a small ceramic heater for increasing temps.

I mainly use my conical for lagers and beers that I dry hop. For ales I like my Speidel fermenters.

IMG_0326.JPG
 
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