Conical CIP - heating the cleaning water question

[eric19312]

For those of you cleaning conical fermentors with CIP are you heating the water only before you start the cycle and then accepting it will cool during the cycle or are you doing something to keep the cleaner hot during the cycle?

Maybe I am overthinking but 5-star mentions circulating PBW at 130-180F and would wonder if I start with water that hot it will surely cool quite a bit over a 20-30 minute cycle (and I read some of you doing even longer cycles).

If you are adding heat during the cycle how are you doing that?

 

[CodeSection]

Since I needed something that could handle my bottle Fastwasher (can't handle over 105F otherwise it warps) I went with this....it cleans whether you use hot or cold water and doesn't lose its cleaning effectiveness as others may https://www.morebeer.com/products/craft-meister-alkaline-brewery-wash.html. For my CF10, BK, MT I start with hot water coming out of the faucet (my water heaters are turned to the highest mark this time of the year) and not worry about it cooling.

BTW, Spike Brewing recommends Craft Meister Alkaline Brewery Wash...

 

[Vale71]

If you are adding heat during the cycle how are you doing that?

I use my RIMS tube.

 

[mongoose33]

It won't cool as much as you think. If you start at, say, 170, you're not going to drop to 130 unless that conical is very cold to begin with.

As a point of reference, what I do with mine is spray down the inside to rinse down krausen and stuff. I use hot water to do that, and then put in a couple gallons of hot water from the tap. That water is abotu 140-145. Because I've warmed the fermenter spraying it out, it doesn't cool all that much.

 

[Dland]

I pump the hot solution though conical CIP ball and whatever lines and cooler I'm cleaning up and then back into HLT, I usually start at 160F or so and temp slowly climbs as it cycles though HLT. I like to run the PBW at or above 160F, usually 20 or 30 minutes.

 

[eric19312]

How about something like this?
https://www.dernord.com/collections...ting-element-replacement-1-2-inch-thread-500w
combined with
https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/tc15f12npt.htm

Attach it to the conical via the sample or racking port - it is about 5-6 inches long. I don't have a coil in my conical so not going to bump into anything.
Make sure it can only run when the CIP pump is running

Use an inkbird to turn it on and off based on temp in the thermowell

 

[Dland]

That should work too, depending on your timing and process, might be nice for stand alone fermentor cleaning. 500W is not going to heat it fast, but that is sometimes OK.

I usually add and heat sanitation water to HLT (5500W 240V) as soon as done sparging, so I can clean conical and lines during boil. This times well for my brew day and set up, but there are plenty of good ways to do things.

You might also be able to fit a bigger tri clamp mounted heat element in fermentor, depending on your fermentor configuration.

 

[eric19312]

That should work too, depending on your timing and process, might be nice for stand alone fermentor cleaning. 500W is not going to heat it fast, but that is sometimes OK.

I usually add and heat sanitation water to HLT (5500W 240V) as soon as done sparging, so I can clean conical and lines during boil. This times well for my brew day and set up, but there are plenty of good ways to do things.

You might also be able to fit a bigger tri clamp mounted heat element in fermentor, depending on your fermentor configuration.

Thanks great feedback
How about 1500W 120V?
https://www.dernord.com/collections...d-heating-element-replacement-3-4-inch-thread

I guess my initial thinking was that I just wanted the heat stick to maintain the temperature during the cycle not actually heat my cleaning water but this is same price and might be even more convenient.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Ambient water rinse to warm it up a little (I ideally clean immediately after transferring beer out so it's quite cold), get the loose stuff out, then a hot water rinse to both warm it up to cleaning temp and get any more loose matter out. Then add hot water and chemical. You'll lose a bit over your cycle but not too much. Just like mash temps- if you preheat you'll lose a lot less. Unless your fermenter is jacketed and you leave the cooling on

 

[eric19312]

Ambient water rinse to warm it up a little (I ideally clean immediately after transferring beer out so it's quite cold), get the loose stuff out, then a hot water rinse to both warm it up to cleaning temp and get any more loose matter out. Then add hot water and chemical. You'll lose a bit over your cycle but not too much. Just like mash temps- if you preheat you'll lose a lot less. Unless your fermenter is jacketed and you leave the cooling on

OK as usual I may be overthinking. I'll try it as described here and see if it seems to be a problem. I'd like to be able to continue to use PBW as it is quite a bit cheaper than that Craftmeister product but seems to want hot water both for cleaning and rinsing.

 

[Beholder]

With my conical, I use my kettle to heat water up to 160-170, add PBW and pump into conical, as the metal and glycol in the jacket absorb 20 degrees or so. You get some heat loss with the vaporization of the cleaner during CIP cycle, but not nearly as much as the initial heat sink into room temp equipment.

 

[Dland]

Thanks great feedback
How about 1500W 120V?
https://www.dernord.com/collections...d-heating-element-replacement-3-4-inch-thread

I guess my initial thinking was that I just wanted the heat stick to maintain the temperature during the cycle not actually heat my cleaning water but this is same price and might be even more convenient.

That should work, I was thinking of these: (the elements after first row) https://www.google.com/search?q=denrod+240V+tri+clamp+1.5&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjnsLnY_8LmAhVPSN8KHXMPB44QsAR6BAgHEAE

What you have linked probably will fit better into your fermentor, looks good.

 

[eric19312]

That should work, I was thinking of these: (the elements after first row) https://www.google.com/search?q=denrod+240V+tri+clamp+1.5&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjnsLnY_8LmAhVPSN8KHXMPB44QsAR6BAgHEAE

What you have linked probably will fit better into your fermentor, looks good.

I am concerned that the type of elements you are pointing at need to be submerged at all times or they will fail. I am not planning to submerge the heater, it will simply be getting rained on by the CIP ball.

The cartridge heaters apparantly can be used in dry applications such as seal bars in packaging equipment and heating hot stamps. With the NPT threaded flange the unit is also useful (according to mfg) for heating water. Hopfully the CIP spray will sufficiently transfer heat from this unit to the CIP water.

I am a little concerned about overheating but guess the expose flange end of this thing would heat up noticeably if the end inside the conical was overheating. Would start early trials at lower temps to verify this idea.

I am also a little concerned about the lack of a grounding wire on the cartridge heater. I would have it plugged into GFCI protected outlet and sticking with 120V so I think I'm good...but if anybody sees this and knows better I'm all ears.

Last issue I see is that the Spike CIP process requires the thermowell port for venting so I will not be able to measure temp in the thermowell as planned. I think I will have to measure temp somewhere else.

 

[Dland]

Understand your concern about element out of water, they fail quickly if on and dry.

I was assuming there would be a reservoir of water at bottom of fermentor at all times during process, but you may not need to use that much. I usually use at least 4 gallons cleaning water for each step, partly because I usually have some kegs, plate cooler & 20 ft transfer line to sanitize as well. 4 gallons is also the minimum I can use in my HLT without exposing heat element to air.

As to the cartridge heater, I think it would need to be submerged to be effective even if it can take being in the air, I doubt it will have enough contact/time area if just heating spray.

Is there a reason in your set up you can't just cycle though another vessel with a heat element? It does work well and does not require adding to fermetor.

 

[eric19312]

Is there a reason in your set up you can't just cycle though another vessel with a heat element? It does work well and does not require adding to fermetor.

If I didn't want to do it on a brew day I could circulate through my BK using one pump to get the cleaning solution out of the conical and my second pump to send it back. Then I would not need the heat stick at all, I could control the temps with my mash temp controller.

But I frequently keg one batch while brewing the next and was thinking about a cleaning strategy that could be done off to the side with minimal supervision with a single pump pulling the solution out of the bottom and back to the spray ball.

 

[Dland]

Even one of the old pumps cycles it around for me, and the new riptide really spins the CIP ball, and returns to HLT.

Maybe you should consider another vessel, my HLT is just a modified keg, not a lot of money in it. From the sound of it, you wouldn't even need a very big heating vessel to achieve your remote CIP station.

I sanitize fermentor during boil, so it is freshly clean for new batch.

 

[Beholder]

If I didn't want to do it on a brew day I could circulate through my BK using one pump to get the cleaning solution out of the conical and my second pump to send it back. Then I would not need the heat stick at all, I could control the temps with my mash temp controller.

But I frequently keg one batch while brewing the next and was thinking about a cleaning strategy that could be done off to the side with minimal supervision with a single pump pulling the solution out of the bottom and back to the spray ball.

With that in mind, you could put a heat stick through a T and put that in line after your single pump creating essentially a RIMS system for cleaning.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32841045731.html

It would always be submerged and with a thermocouple downstream of the heat, could temperature control it with minimal supervision.

 

[eric19312]

So maybe easy solution is a bucket and a sump pump with a bucket heater. Any ideas about a sump pump that will tolerate 160F? The 1/3 HP thermoplastic one I like on Amazon says max liquid temp is 120F...

 

[mongoose33]

So maybe easy solution is a bucket and a sump pump with a bucket heater. Any ideas about a sump pump that will tolerate 160F? The 1/3 HP thermoplastic one I like on Amazon says max liquid temp is 120F...

Actually, the easy solution is to just heat some water to about 150-160, and then use that water to CIP. I think you are WAY overthinking this heating the cleaning solution thing. As long as you've rinsed out the fermenter to get the loose stuff out, there won't be enough heat loss to warrant any kind of supplemental heat source.

Heck, I do mine with about 145 degree water for about 20 minutes and it works just fine. No supplemental heat source.

 

[eric19312]

Maybe you are right. CIP is probably unnecessary for the CF15. I read a few people in other thread saying not really using it anyway. The full open top makes cleaning and inspecting really easy. The unit is not too heavy for me to move it around (once empty).

I did this a couple days ago with my Mark II keg cleaning fountain pump and it worked out just fine. Valves, plumbing and racking arm all fit in the bucket. I did a 10 min warm water rinse followed by 60 min warm PBW. Wiped the rim with a sponge soaked in PBW to get the last of the krausen ring (barely a film and wiped right off) and then finished with 10 min warm water rinse. I only did the PBW so long because I got busy with something else. Maybe easy solution is to switch to ABW which is supposed to work better at lower temperatures and otherwise use what I have. Might still add the bucket heater though and keep the cleaning solution in the 120F range. My garage gets pretty cold in the winter.

 

[eric19312]

So I found this cool calculator...not sure if it accurate or not but seemed to answer my questions about how much heat would be needed...

https://www.oemheaters.com/topic/immersion-wattage

I got out some math tools and figured surface area of the CF15 is 10.6 square feet of uninsulated stainless. Assumed I'd want to heat 2 gallons of water from 100F to 160F over 20 min and that I'd be trying to maintain that temperature in 60F ambient garage I came up with needing about 1500 watts. It might be 1850 if I add in the weight of the SS including the parts sitting in the bucket.

So I bought this 2000 watt immersion heater and will see how it works next time I clean.

edited to add...checked link and now Amazon says it is 3000 watt heater but I don't think that is right. But when I ordered it it said 2000 watts and it is plugged into 120v so I doubt it is 3000.

 

[augiedoggy]

I use hot tap water to cip my large plastic conicals at the brewpub... PBW does seem to clean best in my boil kettle at around 170 degrees for me though .. I fill the boil kettle with enough waste water from the chiller which was collected in my Mash tun to just cover my four heating elements then I recirc with my sprayball while heating the water/pbw up to 170... I then run it for an additional 10 mins at 170 before draining enough of the liquid to expose the 4 ripple elements which I then spray with the cip ball inside the kettle and then turn them 180 degrees before spraying again.. sometimes this will completely clean them and sometimes I have to remove them to clean further... I also sometimes have to use a brush on the kettle walls but I have never needed to use any mechanical brushes or rags in the conicals.

 

[SanPancho]

As i understand it anything with oxygen or peroxide is best at no more than 160. Above that and the oxygen releases before you really get cleaning going. Thats from our chem rep.

and to sum up the big idea here, chem cleaning like cip is usually a balance of time and temp. Shorter and hotter, cooler and longer. Take your pick. Dont sweat the temp drop, all that matters is if its clean or not when you finish.

(although some folks prefer longer and cooler, as it puts less heat stress on the welds, especially the made in china stuff.)

the “correct” cip régimen is the one that uses the least chems, at the lowest temps, for the shortest period of time to get things sufficiently clean. More is not better.

 

[Qhrumphf]

As i understand it anything with oxygen or peroxide is best at no more than 160. Above that and the oxygen releases before you really get cleaning going. Thats from our chem rep.

and to sum up the big idea here, chem cleaning like cip is usually a balance of time and temp. Shorter and hotter, cooler and longer. Take your pick. Dont sweat the temp drop, all that matters is if its clean or not when you finish.

(although some folks prefer longer and cooler, as it puts less heat stress on the welds, especially the made in china stuff.)

the “correct” cip régimen is the one that uses the least chems, at the lowest temps, for the shortest period of time to get things sufficiently clean. More is not better.

I often see it expressed as a 4 piece pie chart. Time, temp, chemical concentration, and mechanical action. When one reduces, others have to increase to compensate to keep the pie whole. The spray ball and an appropriately powerful pump handles the latter (as opposed to, say, soaking). Then as you said, it's balancing the time, temp, and concentration to handle the rest.

With concentration, a slight reduction in strength can dramatically diminish effectiveness, where it can take a very big increase in concentration to get only marginally improved cleaning. But given the trade off, when in doubt I would prefer to be slightly above target concentration, than slightly below it, so I pad accordingly.

With temp, i always try to get near the max of the working range of the chemical in question depending on what I'm doing. Exceeding it can be problematic for sure. But if I can use less chemical for less time with a hotter temp, there's minimal reason to my mind not to do so.

 

[SanPancho]

Sure, but i think his original issue was temperature drop. So heating is the problem here. In that case, dont sweat it and just go go for a bit longer, et ceteris paribis.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Absolutely. It's a matter of what gets it cleaned under the circumstances that matter to you. If time is important, go hot. If hot is more challenging, cycle longer. If it's still not coming clean, use a higher chemical concentration, or a stronger pump, or a better spray ball.

 

[eric19312]

I think I’m set for maintaining 150-160 cleaning temps. Will not have mechanical action from spray ball, just solution running over the walls. Will see how it goes in about 2 weeks when current batch gets kegged.

 

[sensei247]

Since I needed something that could handle my bottle Fastwasher (can't handle over 105F otherwise it warps) I went with this....it cleans whether you use hot or cold water and doesn't lose its cleaning effectiveness as others may Craft Meister Alkaline Brewery Wash | MoreBeer. For my CF10, BK, MT I start with hot water coming out of the faucet (my water heaters are turned to the highest mark this time of the year) and not worry about it cooling.

BTW, Spike Brewing recommends Craft Meister Alkaline Brewery Wash...

How is this still working for you? I’m looking at using a sump pump to run the CF CIP ball with cold water. Trying to understand if this will work or if it’s a lost cause since water will not be hot. One option is to use water from hot water tap (~120F) but will require I plumb my garage for this...hoping you avoid)

 

[CodeSection]

How is this still working for you? I’m looking at using a sump pump to run the CF CIP ball with cold water. Trying to understand if this will work or if it’s a lost cause since water will not be hot. One option is to use water from hot water tap (~120F) but will require I plumb my garage for this...hoping you avoid)

Craft Meister Alkaline Brewery Wash works great and I continue to use it! Many recommend it.

Based upon what you posted, I would definitely use it as there are no negatives with it as compared with other products. Plus, you don't have to worry about leaving a "film" on your equipment that some brewers have complained about other products doing.

Give it try. You won't be disappointed!

 

[sensei247]

Craft Meister Alkaline Brewery Wash works great and I continue to use it! Many recommend it.

Based upon what you posted, I would definitely use it as there are no negatives with it as compared with other products. Plus, you don't have to worry about leaving a "film" on your equipment that some brewers have complained about other products doing.

Give it try. You won't be disappointed!

Awesome stuff! And no issues running this with cold tap water?

 

[CodeSection]

Awesome stuff! And no issues running this with cold tap water?

Simply no issues whatsoever. I routinely use cold tap water, especially when using my FastWashers to clean bottles. I strongly encourage brewers to try it.

 

[sensei247]

Simply no issues whatsoever. I routinely use cold tap water, especially when using my FastWashers to clean bottles. I strongly encourage brewers to try it.

Awesome! Thanks for that. One last question- what pumps are you using for CIP? I am looking at picking up a 1hp sump pump esp if cold water is ok (can’t afford riptide/chugged/etc right now but seems like sump pump can do the trick...thoughts?)

 

[CodeSection]

In my setup, everything is cleaned it my laundry room. Since I have a CF10, it is easier and faster for me to not use the CIP ball and instead, just fill the CF10, add the Craft Meister Alkaline Brewery Wash when it is half full by sprinkling it in, continue to fill to the top, and then just let it soak. Later, I will clean the sides and rinse. Afterwards, I completely disassemble the valves and let them soak in a five gallon bucket.

I use two MKII pumps in my setup. I clean my kettles the same way as above, except I circulate using the pumps. Every 5-10 minutes, I adjust the pumps flow so as to clean the ball valves better....

I use a 1/4 HP pump (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000X05G1A/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1 ) in other processes, and it is powerful. So, I''m sure a 1 HP pump will easily operate a CIP ball.

 

[sensei247]

In my setup, everything is cleaned it my laundry room. Since I have a CF10, it is easier and faster for me to not use the CIP ball and instead, just fill the CF10, add the Craft Meister Alkaline Brewery Wash when it is half full by sprinkling it in, continue to fill to the top, and then just let it soak. Later, I will clean the sides and rinse. Afterwards, I completely disassemble the valves and let them soak in a five gallon bucket.

I use two MKII pumps in my setup. I clean my kettles the same way as above, except I circulate using the pumps. Every 5-10 minutes, I adjust the pumps flow so as to clean the ball valves better....

I use a 1/4 HP pump (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000X05G1A/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1 ) in other processes, and it is powerful. So, I''m sure a 1 HP pump will easily operate a CIP ball.

Super helpful! Thanks again for all of the comments and link. I ordered a sump pump and going to give this a try on my next batch. Appreciate the help again.

 

[eric19312]

we got to get those home made PBW guys working on that Craft Meister Alkaline Brewery Wash...

 

[CodeSection]

we got to get those home made PBW guys working on that Craft Meister Alkaline Brewery Wash...

That would be interesting, though I'm not sure what the cost savings would be. I guess it would depend upon the quantity made vs the quantity purchased. I bought the 40 lb tub of the Craft Meister Alkaline Brewery Wash.....cost $4.25/lb.

I was told a 50 lb PBW tub would not keep long and eventually would absorb moisture and form clumps. Morebeer said that was another advantage of the Craft Meister Alkaline Brewery Wash as it would not clump together. They were right.