Citric Acid for mash pH adjustment. Will I taste it?

[Silver_Is_Money]

I'm brewing a Kolsch tomorrow, and for mash pH adjustment I generally use either 88% lactic acid or Acidulated Malt, but I'm intrigued by the prospect of using Citric Acid.

My recipe is for a 13 Plato Kolsch, and I anticipate ~6.5 gallons going to the fermenter. My calculator says that 3.75 grams of Citric Acid should bring the mash to its nominal pH target of 5.4.

My question is: Will I detect any off flavor if I proceed to use the 3.75 grams of Citric Acid crystal instead of opting for Lactic Acid or Acid Malt?

 

[IslandLizard]

What's the intrigue? Just using it for kicks?

I doubt you can taste it at that level, even in a Kolsch.
Have you tried a proportional amount in a glass of water or a similar beer?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

What's the intrigue? Just using it for kicks?

I doubt you can taste it at that level, even in a Kolsch.
Have you tried a proportional amount in a glass of water or a similar beer?

Sort of just for kicks, but also because it's economical and easy to measure out. I reformulated my water (no alkalinity component now**) and got the citric acid down to 2 grams. Going to give it a try today.

** Originally I was going for a lower mineral profile of Cl and SO4 and I supplemented the Ca via adding some Pickling Lime (calcium hydroxide). I just tossed this idea, got rid of the Pickling lime, and added more CaCl2 and CaSO4 to get calcium up to 55 ppm. This dropped the citric acid need from 3.75 grams to 2 grams.

It's not a conventional Kolsch grist by any means. The only tie to Kolsch is the yeast (wherein I'm fully trusting in the old adage that people make wort, but yeast makes beer). See the thumbnail below:

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

If citric acid introduces no noticeable flavor at 2 grams I will push the boundary with future batches to see where the flavor limit lies.

 

[cire]

I doubt you will taste much from 2g of citric acid. Used it 2013 to neutralise alkalinity in sparge liquor. My notes record 2 level teaspoons (probably smaller than a standard 5ml teaspoon) of crystals neutralised alkalinity (~250ppm) in 19 litres to end point. Mash liquor (14L) alkalinity had been reduced using CRS.

Citric acid was used in expection of any flavor that got through would complement the Cascade hops in a pale ale. The result was disappointing, my notes included ...
"Quite bland but a citrus taste" ..... although I seem to remember that was from hops
"not great, very neutral?"
"never got a great amount of character."

I've not used citric acid for this since. The yeast was WLP008 which I blamed for the neutral taste and lack of character although found later it worked better in later brew of lager malt with Magnum, Hallertau Mittelfruh and Saaz. Good luck, hope it turns out well.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Have you tried a proportional amount in a glass of water or a similar beer?

I should have done this, but I didn't. The beer is in the fermenter and in the beer fridge with the Inkbird set at 64 degrees F. It received the 2 grams of citric acid.

If it tastes like citrus I'll have to consider telling people I used cascade hops. I actually used magnum and Liberty.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I think you will notice it but only because you'll be looking for it. But is it really there? Is it citric acid that you taste? Could it be acetaldehyde? Could it be a hop/yeast flavour? You'll never know and will drink a whole keg in a night trying to work it out.

My gut feeling is that 2g wouldn't be noticeable in a kolsch, but closer to 4g would be. I think the flavour threshold would be much lower than for other acids, but it could work well in some styles.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Here is the absolute weirdest part. The 30 and 60 minute mash samples, carefully cooled to 77 degrees F., both read a stable 5.10 pH (with an occasional brief drift to 5.09 and 5.11 as I watched them over time). I'm at a loss to even imagine how the mash pH could have fell so amazingly low, given the grist, a base of really good quality** RO water I purchased from Clearwater Systems, and the minerals I added along with the 2 grams of citric acid (as can all be seen in my thumbnail in post #3 above). Either citric acid is way more acidic than I'm presuming, or I have no words....

** I must admit that I did not test this brews Clearwater Systems sourced RO water with my TDS meter, but my last water from the same outfit measured 2 TDS by my meter, and the manager of the local Clearwater where I bought this water told me it is kept at or below 7 TDS.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

It's got a nice 1" thick krausen already, its bubbling nicely, roiling, and holding at between 64 and 65 degrees as intended. The WLP029 yeast seems to be very well behaved (so far). So mashing at 5.1 pH didn't seem to ruin things too much, and as a bonus I didn't need to further acidify (or even bother with checking the pH) before or after the boil.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

OK, I got out the pH meter this morning and placed it in fresh 7.01 buffer and it read 7.08, and in fresh 4.01 solution it read 4.03. I then calibrated it in the 7.01 solution, and after that is when things got really weird. When I moved it over to the 4.01 solution (after a distilled water rinse and a light tab dry with a tissue as per the instructions) it oddly stabilized at 4.28 this time around (before I hit the calibration button again and locked it in at 4.01).

Obviously my two 5.10 mash pH readings from yesterday are completely wonky, as was my pH meter. 5.10 is not a mash pH reading for the record books.

I have no idea how this happened. Time for a new pH meter? New calibration solutions?

 

[cire]

Might be worth giving your probe a jolly good clean first, I use this stuff.

My meter has a separate probe and have found cheap replacements from China quite reliable.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Might be worth giving your probe a jolly good clean first, I use this stuff.

My meter has a separate probe and have found cheap replacements from China quite reliable.

Thanks!!! That looks to be just what I need.

From the MSDS (now called SDS) it appears that it may simply be 37% (or Concentrated) HCl, but perhaps not, as that is some seriously nasty and dangerous stuff.

 

[cire]

Well I didn't know that. It is what I use(confirmed the number on the container) and I buy 37% food grade HCl (E507) to reduce alkalinity and can get 2 litres for the same price. I'll have to test it and if it is I'll not need to buy any more. Many thanks.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I'm not sure if 37% HCl is something that can be purchased at retail in the USA.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I just saw where a replacement probe for my meter is $33 with free shipping on Amazon.

 

[cire]

Quite ambiguous. It first refers to 0.034% HCl and later 37% HCl. I doubt it's the latter as at that concentration it is not usable without suitable personal protection. It can still be bought here although few carriers will handle it.

I think it probably is a mix of cleaners and surfacants including a small quantity (0.034%) of HCL, while to cover themselves they give full hazard particulars for HCl. If it was 37% HCl they would have problems shipping it.

$33 is not too bad, but I'd at least give it a good soaking in storage solution before ordering.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I bottled my Kolsch that was mash pH adjusted with citric acid crystals today, and a preliminary tasting (prior to adding priming sugar) gave me zero indication of any citric acid taste. I'm safe at 2 grams for a yield of 63 full 12 ounce bottles. 64 total when counting line purge and sampling.

64 x 12 = 768 ounces = 6 gallons yield

OG = 1.0506 (13.0 Brix)
FG = 1.0125 (6.95 Brix)
Brix to SG via the Novotny 'quadratic' method

75.3% apparent attenuation, WLP029 yeast

Novotny ABV = 5.28%
Brewers Friend 'Alternate' ABV = 5.10%
Brewers Friend 'Standard' ABV = 5.00%

Priming sugar was one "Domino Dot" per bottle. A highly consistent 2.31 grams of table sugar per dot by my scale. 2.29 grams per dot if going by the printed package weight and dots per package count.

 

[passedpawn]

I'm not sure if 37% HCl is something that can be purchased at retail in the USA.

Muriatic acid, which is carried by pool stores Home depot, etc, it just diluted HCl. The concentration isn't regulated, but it's typically 20-35%. I'll be using some for an experiment this weekend, I'll report back (if I remember) the concentration when I get it out (I'll have to titrate NaOH to get the pH, which then will give me concentration).

 

[passedpawn]

I'm brewing a Kolsch tomorrow, and for mash pH adjustment I generally use either 88% lactic acid or Acidulated Malt, but I'm intrigued by the prospect of using Citric Acid.

My recipe is for a 13 Plato Kolsch, and I anticipate ~6.5 gallons going to the fermenter. My calculator says that 3.75 grams of Citric Acid should bring the mash to its nominal pH target of 5.4.

My question is: Will I detect any off flavor if I proceed to use the 3.75 grams of Citric Acid crystal instead of opting for Lactic Acid or Acid Malt?

I used 10g citric acid in a 10 batch of wheat beer and could not taste it. There was also chamomile and honey in there, so that might have masked the sour citrus taste of citric acid. I'm carbing the beer now, I'll "taste more closely" when it's ready. Still, the best time to pick out off flavors is before the CO2 is added.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I used 10g citric acid in a 10 batch of wheat beer and could not taste it. There was also chamomile and honey in there, so that might have masked the sour citrus taste of citric acid. I'm carbing the beer now, I'll "taste more closely" when it's ready. Still, the best time to pick out off flavors is before the CO2 is added.

Did you use the citric acid specifically for mash pH adjustment, or was there some other motivation involved?

 

[passedpawn]

Did you use the citric acid specifically for mash pH adjustment, or was there some other motivation involved?

Exactly. I've used lactic before but thought I'd try citric. I keep a ton of it around for descaling purposes, cheesemaking, tonic water, etc.

Sadly, my brewday got hectic and I failed to take the pH measurements, so I'm not sure if I hit targets or not.

 

[passedpawn]

BTW, though that muriatic is diluted acid, it's still fairly dangerous. I once splashed it on my leg while cleaning something, felt the burn immediately, and jumped into the pool. Probably should use protective eyeware and gloves if you're using it, and have a source of fresh water nearby for dilution. Or just jump in your pool

 

[passedpawn]

I'm not sure if 37% HCl is something that can be purchased at retail in the USA.

I titrated the muriatic acid I had into a 1M solution of NaOH, with a phenolphthalein indicator, and determined that my muriatic is about 31% HCL. This is the muriatic acid that Home Depot sells.

 

[passedpawn]

I've got two beers on tap that both had 10g of citric acid in the mash (11gal batches). No flavor contribution for sure. One is an IPA which probably would mask the flavor. The other is a wheat beer, and I don't taste it in there either. If you've tasted citric acid, it's a pretty obvious "sour head" flavor.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I've got two beers on tap that both had 10g of citric acid in the mash (11gal batches). No flavor contribution for sure. One is an IPA which probably would mask the flavor. The other is a wheat beer, and I don't taste it in there either. If you've tasted citric acid, it's a pretty obvious "sour head" flavor.

This is good to know. It's so easy to measure out that I may switch to it for mash pH control in most of my brewing. It seems from your experience that 5 grams in a 6 gallon batch should go unnoticed.

 

[mabrungard]

Unless that Muriatic acid states that it's food-grade or lab reagent grade, I wouldn't use it in foodstuffs. Strong acids dissolve most substances including heavy metals and other undesirable things. This is definitely a penny-wise, pound-foolish effort here.

 

[passedpawn]

Unless that Muriatic acid states that it's food-grade or lab reagent grade, I wouldn't use it in foodstuffs. Strong acids dissolve most substances including heavy metals and other undesirable things. This is definitely a penny-wise, pound-foolish effort here.

I believe the HCl was being used to clean pH probe. For mash acidification, citric acid.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I believe the HCl was being used to clean pH probe. For mash acidification, citric acid.

Correct!

 

[passedpawn]

FYI, I'm brewing today and once again added 10g citric acid to the mash. At the end of the mash, I pulled a sample and cooled it in a sealed container. pH = 5.24.

It's a brown ale (not sure what difference the malts make, but it had standard malts for the style).

 

[passedpawn]

2nd mash, 10g citric acid, pale ale malt grist bill, pH = 5.13.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

2nd mash, 10g citric acid, pale ale malt grist bill, pH = 5.13.

You are most certainly brave with the citric acid. Are you sure it can't be tasted?

 

[passedpawn]

You are most certainly brave with the citric acid. Are you sure it can't be tasted?

I don't taste it. I've got two beers on tap, described above (I think), both seem normal (and good).

 

[passedpawn]

I don't taste it. I've got two beers on tap, described above (I think), both seem normal (and good).

I should have said, "I have two beers on tap in which I used citric acid to control the mash pH..."

So, no problems