Cider Newbie (yeah one of those)... Opinions gladly needed

[Shuldawg]

Hello All,

I have been homebrewing and winemaking for about 3 years, but this is my first go at cider. I have been reading info and how-to's both here and elsewhere to get ideas how to start. And of coarse, my local HBS (Keystone Homebrew, yey!)

But I wanted to run my plan out loud, and please opinions and suggestions are gladly accepted, and wanted.
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I am using this source for my recipe base: http://http://brewingtv.com/recipe/2012/9/7/hard-cider-recipe.html

Supplies:

5 gal fresh orchard pressed unpasturized cider
Campden Tablets
Yeast Energizer
Yeast Nutrient
1 lb light brown sugar
White Labs WLP775 English Cider Yeast​

I will add the campden to help condition bacteria/ wild yeasts before ferment. Question 1- I'm adding brown sugar to help boost the OG. Should I add the sugar in the beginning with the Campden, or wait until 36 hrs for campden to do it's thing, then add the brown sugar before I pitch yeast? Or doesn't it really matter?

After primary, will rack into a seconday for however long- no real expectation here (I guess mainly for clearity).

The most trouble I am having is with the back sweetening(BS) ((giggle)) and carbonation.

Question 2- With the BS, do I work on that at the end of the secondary or the beginning? And it seems that is a, "add to taste" method, correct? I also want to try to use real maple syrup for the BS- thoughts/comments...

I will be bottle carbonating/ conditiong. I planned on using corn sugar just like in beer brewing. Question 3- How do I figure out how much to use for 5 gal. batch; the same as I do for brewing, or less? Also, do I need to take into account thee maple syrup I am adding in the BS?

I think I want to pasturized (http://https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/easy-stove-top-pasteurizing-pics-193295/). There shouldn't be any issues, right? I can do that as soon as I bottle the cider, or do I have to wait a bit?
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OK, I think that is it for now. I am sorry to be that guy that may post questions with obvious answers. Just anxious to start but don't want to blow it. I really appreciate everyones time and look forward to the community's input.

 

[barnaclebob]

I'm not sure what the difference is between yeast nutrient and yeast energizer. You might only need one of them.

Skip the sugar to bump up OG if you are going for good flavor. Adding sugar does nothing to improve flavor and it can create some bad flavors. Plain apple juice should have the same OG as a typical beer.

Don't worry about the need to backsweeten until there is a need for it. If you do everything right and then you may not need to backsweeten.

It is difficult to get a naturally sweetened and bottle carbonated cider. To naturally sweeten you have to kill the yeast which means that you can't bottle carbonate. Most people will add artificial sugar to sweeten and then bottle carb.

Another option is to add sugar to bottle carbonate AND backsweeten then make one or two PET bottles. Pasturize the glass ones when the PET gets firm like an unopened soda bottle.

 

[aidan]

You cannot back-sweeten it and then bottle carb it as it will just ferment out. To backsweeten you need to kill the yeast so then you can't bottle carb it. I made a cider that was overly dry and sharp so I just back-sweeten it as I drink it with a dash of apple juice. Next time I will use lower attenuating yeast and maybe add some pears as they have more unfermentable sugars than apples.

 

[rlmiller10]

Question 1 - I would wait but it really doesn't matter. You will want to stir to get some oxygen in the juice before you pitch the yeast so might as well be mixing sugar as well.
Question 2 - if you are going to back sweeten you do it at the end. But you need to either chemically or use heat to kill your yeast if you do and are going to bottle. If you don't kill the yeast they will just eat up all that sweetness. Here is a great thread on what you need to do https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/easy-stove-top-pasteurizing-pics-193295/
Question 3 - If you follow the thread on pasteurizing above you don't need to worry about it. The sugars from back sweetening will do the job. But if you ferment dry and then just want to add a bit of carbonation , you can use the same calculator as you would for beer to determine corn sugar amount.

 

[bernardsmith]

You cannot back-sweeten it and then bottle carb it as it will just ferment out. To backsweeten you need to kill the yeast so then you can't bottle carb it. I made a cider that was overly dry and sharp so I just back-sweeten it as I drink it with a dash of apple juice. Next time I will use lower attenuating yeast and maybe add some pears as they have more unfermentable sugars than apples.

Cider ain't beer. There is no such thing as a yeast that when asked to ferment apple juice will be unable to ferment every last gram of sugar. That is why wine yeasts are never graded by their "attenuation" rates. Yeast is measured by its tolerance for alcohol and 5 or 6 percent alcohol is not going to make a yeast blink: the apple must (the juice) is likely to have a gravity of about 1.050 (+ or -). Not sure that any ale or beer yeast will not be able to convert that amount of simple sugar either... The routine solution is to stabilize and backsweeten or stall the yeast by removing nutrients at the start of fermentation in a process known as keeving.
Keeving is a real challenge but stabilizing is easy. You "simply" remove all or almost all the active yeast cells and then inoculate the cider with K-meta and k-sorbate. Together these two chemicals knock out the less than virile yeast that remain and prevent them from reproducing. If you add sugar after this inoculation the sugar will not be fermented.

 

[MarkKF]

You cannot back-sweeten it and then bottle carb it as it will just ferment out

I disagree. I've done it. You just need to bottle pasteurize when u reach the desired carbonation. Use a plastic soda bottle to squeeze test then open and verify.

 

[Shuldawg]

Great info; thanks for your responses guys! So it seems that I need to decide weather I want to back sweeten OR carb (I am bottling b/c I cannot keg).

So if I back sweeten, what about this- at the end of the secondary, could I add Potassium sorbate to help stop the yeast & fermentation. Then add the maple syrup to sweeten, then bottle? Then I don't worry about adding anything for "carbonation".

Or if I go the pasteurization method- add syrup to cider at bottling. Once I finish bottling, then add to hot water bath to pasteurize which should stop yeast and hopefully not make any explodies?

What if I add the maple syrup to the primary; do you think any of that taste will make it through or will it all just ferment out?

Sorry to be a pain all; thanks for your knowledge!

 

[ciderWI]

Since you asked....

To up the SG we use Old Orchard apple concentrate. If you do use concentrate make sure it has no preservatives.

We also add some acid blend, some tannin for backbone, and a teaspoon of pectic enzyme to help clear the haze.

The bottle conditioned stuff we do is bone dry and quite good. We also have a keg to force carb and can add sorbate and back sweeten.

 

[aidan]

I disagree. I've done it. You just need to bottle pasteurize when u reach the desired carbonation. Use a plastic soda bottle to squeeze test then open and verify.

That's true, you could do that but you could risk over-carbing if you don't time it right. If pasteurizing by heat I'd be a bit concerned about heating the PET bottles as they can distort when hot.

 

[MarkKF]

That's true, you could do that but you could risk over-carbing if you don't time it right. If pasteurizing by heat I'd be a bit concerned about heating the PET bottles as they can distort when hot.

True & very True

 

[Shuldawg]

That's true, you could do that but you could risk over-carbing if you don't time it right. If pasteurizing by heat I'd be a bit concerned about heating the PET bottles as they can distort when hot.

PET? (Excuse my ignorance...)

 

[aidan]

PET? (Excuse my ignorance...)

Plastic bottles (Polyethylene terephthalate)

 

[barnaclebob]

That's true, you could do that but you could risk over-carbing if you don't time it right. If pasteurizing by heat I'd be a bit concerned about heating the PET bottles as they can distort when hot.

You don't have to heat PET bottles. You bottle all of your batch in glass except 1 or 2 PET bottles. When the PET gets firm enough you drink it and pasteurize the glass bottles under the assumption that they have the same level of carbonation.

 

[ericbw]

You don't have to heat PET bottles. You bottle all of your batch in glass except 1 or 2 PET bottles. When the PET gets firm enough you drink it and pasteurize the glass bottles under the assumption that they have the same level of carbonation.

This works well. If you just guess at the carb level, you're probably likely to undershoot it, hoping to avoid explosions. The plastic bottle lets you time it right. And wait until the plastic bottle is totally firm, so you can't squeeze it. Pasteurize that day.

 

[ericbw]

Great info; thanks for your responses guys! So it seems that I need to decide weather I want to back sweeten OR carb (I am bottling b/c I cannot keg).

So if I back sweeten, what about this- at the end of the secondary, could I add Potassium sorbate to help stop the yeast & fermentation. Then add the maple syrup to sweeten, then bottle? Then I don't worry about adding anything for "carbonation".

Or if I go the pasteurization method- add syrup to cider at bottling. Once I finish bottling, then add to hot water bath to pasteurize which should stop yeast and hopefully not make any explodies?

What if I add the maple syrup to the primary; do you think any of that taste will make it through or will it all just ferment out?

Sorry to be a pain all; thanks for your knowledge!

I've never added maple syrup. I have used it to bottle beer, and I don't think that small amount left much flavor. Some claim it adds a hint, but I don't remember that.

I have used molasses, and it leaves a metallic, heavy taste once the sugar is fermented out.

 

[ericbw]

Since you asked....

To up the SG we use Old Orchard apple concentrate. If you do use concentrate make sure it has no preservatives.

We also add some acid blend, some tannin for backbone, and a teaspoon of pectic enzyme to help clear the haze.

The bottle conditioned stuff we do is bone dry and quite good. We also have a keg to force carb and can add sorbate and back sweeten.

I know it varies with the batch, but how much tannin do you typically add? How much acid blend?

Your process sounds similar to ours, except that we're not fans of the bone dry bottle carbed version. It tastes like dry champagne, and is good, but just not my preference.

 

[bernardsmith]

when you add K-sorbate you must add K-meta at the same time (the equivalent of 1 Campden tab) - but as K-meta does not dissolve well in alcohol, dissolve the K-meta in a tiny amount of water and add that to your cider. (If I recall it is about 1/8 of a teaspoon of K-meta in 5 gallons of wine or cider). These two chemicals - the sorbate and the meta work in tandem and they work only when there are very few viable yeast cells in the alcohol. If you still have a blazing fermentation going then the yeast will neutralize the stabilizers.

 

[ciderWI]

I know it varies with the batch, but how much tannin do you typically add? How much acid blend?

Your process sounds similar to ours, except that we're not fans of the bone dry bottle carbed version. It tastes like dry champagne, and is good, but just not my preference.

Just noticed that the setting on thread subscription was no notification. Sorry.

We add about a teaspoon of liquid tannin, and usually 1 tsp of acid blend (which might be too much for some ciders).

We do like dry champagne, and this is pretty similar.

 

[Tegra]

Sorry, just trying to get this clear in my head....

Do you add the tanin and acid after you have stopped the ferment?

If so, can you immediately "adjust for taste"? (Or do the tanin and acid have to meld with the cider over a period of time)

Tom

 

[ciderWI]

We add both before fermenting. I think you can get a sense of the tannins and tartness by tasting the unfermented juice, but maybe I'm just being overly optimistic about my capabilities. In any case, the results have been good.

Tannins definitely do mellow out over time, but we don't add enough to make a cider that needs much cellar time. The one exception to that was when we added oak and that needed the better part of a year to get good.

 

[brewing_clown]

I usually add pectinase an hour before pitching yeast to avoid pectin haze. I use concentrated apple juice and/or sucrose to raise OG.

 

[Tegra]

So, would it be categorically wrong to add acid and tannin to finished cider?


Tom

 

[ericbw]

So, would it be categorically wrong to add acid and tannin to finished cider?


Tom

Not at all. That's a good time to do it.