Cheapest entry into All Grain?

[onipar]

This weekend I'll be brewing my second extract kit, this time with hops and specialty grains. The thing is, I *know* I want to go all grain eventually, and honestly, the only thing holding me back at the moment is the money.

I currently only have a 20 quart "Canner" enamel pot, the "intro" beer kit, and some odds and ends.

By my estimation, I'll need the following to get into AG:

A 7.5-10 gallon pot, Wort Chiller, MLT, and propane burner?

I know BIAB would be cheaper, but I already have a cooler that I can convert for probably $10-$20, so I'm good there.

The real expense comes in with the Wort Chiller and pot.

So, is there another way to go other than the wort chiller? Something much cheaper but effective? I've seen the DIY Wort Chillers, but anything else?

Does anyone know of a place to get a cheap pot that isn't junk? I've been checking craig's list, ebay, etc, but nothing so far. And when I say cheap, I mean like under $50 (yeah, I know...) I've seen the turkey fryer kit for around that, but it looks sort of junky, and it's an aluminum pot, which I'm sketchy about.

Finally, I'd really like to skip the whole propane burner thing. it's an extra expense I don't want to bother with. I have a gas stove, and my LHBS guy says he does all his brews in his kitchen, but I'm still worried that pot will be too big to boil.

Does anyone use a gas range and boils a full AG in the kitchen?

Thanks for all the help. I realize the answer to my problem is almost certainly going to be "wait and save up the cash" or "keep watching craig's list," but I wanted to be sure I wasn't overlooking a cheaper entry point into AG.

Thanks!

 

[broadbill]

nope, you pretty much have it covered...sorry. The only suggestion I have to look for a keg to convert to a brew kettle.

 

[ehedge20]

If you hit up a sell all kinda place in the low income district you can find 15 gal aluminum stock pots that would work great for about $50. The aluminum will not leach into your beer so no worries there.

 

[onipar]

Thanks! Yeah, I just read that Aluminum vs. SS thread, and it sounds like Aluminum isn't that big of a disadvantage after all. Maybe the cheapo turkey fryer kit and DIY wort chiller and MLT is the way to go. What's that...like $55 + $25? + $15? = $95. So maybe I could do it for around $100...that might work.

 

[Homercidal]

First, a turkey fryer is a great investment. Nothing sketchy about aluminum. You'll get a pot (barley) big enough, and a burner that you can keep using even if you decide to upgrade to a larger SS pot later on. You will PROBABLY not want to do full boils on your kitchen stove. Even if it can put out enough BTUs, it may not like the weight of 7-8 gallons of wort. If you really don't want to mess withe the hassle and cost of propane, check below.

I think the cheapest and easiest way to get an actual wort chiller is to buy some copper tubing and bend your own Immersion Chiller. You could do the ice bath thing but it will take a LONG time. Honestly, I think an IC is not only one of the cheapest methods of chilling your wort, but also one of the best, so that's what I'd recommend. If sweating copper seems like a problem, or if you don't want to invest in the torch and solder etc, ask around for someone who already has that stuff and would do it for a couple of beers. It's pretty easy once you get the hang of it.

Now about that propane! See if you have the electrical capacity to heat using electric heating elements. You'll want a 220V outlet nearby, or two 20Amp 120V outlets. Many people rig up their place with electric, which is always there, quieter, and cheaper as well.

Last but not least, consider brewing smaller batches! Then you can do full boils with a smaller pot, boil on your stove, and brew more batches! Nothing says you HAVE to brew 5 or 10 gallon batches!

 

[onipar]

Thanks, Homercidal.

Ha, you know, brewing in batches less than 5 gallons is something I simply didn't even consider, and yet, seems like a great way of doing AG without buying a ton of extra stuff. I could still do the icebath to cool it down, and could use my current pot.

I guess the only thing I'd want would be more fermenters, since I'd likely be doing more than one batch at a time.

All great advice.

 

[brettwasbtd]

First, a turkey fryer is a great investment. Nothing sketchy about aluminum. You'll get a pot (barley) big enough, and a burner that you can keep using even if you decide to upgrade to a larger SS pot later on. You will PROBABLY not want to do full boils on your kitchen stove. Even if it can put out enough BTUs, it may not like the weight of 7-8 gallons of wort. If you really don't want to mess withe the hassle and cost of propane, check below.

I think the cheapest and easiest way to get an actual wort chiller is to buy some copper tubing and bend your own Immersion Chiller. You could do the ice bath thing but it will take a LONG time. Honestly, I think an IC is not only one of the cheapest methods of chilling your wort, but also one of the best, so that's what I'd recommend. If sweating copper seems like a problem, or if you don't want to invest in the torch and solder etc, ask around for someone who already has that stuff and would do it for a couple of beers. It's pretty easy once you get the hang of it.

Now about that propane! See if you have the electrical capacity to heat using electric heating elements. You'll want a 220V outlet nearby, or two 20Amp 120V outlets. Many people rig up their place with electric, which is always there, quieter, and cheaper as well.

Last but not least, consider brewing smaller batches! Then you can do full boils with a smaller pot, boil on your stove, and brew more batches! Nothing says you HAVE to brew 5 or 10 gallon batches!

+1

Do 2.5 gallon batches and you need very little extra equipment! I am all about the 2.5 gallon batches as I like variety, and love to brew!

 

[a10t2]

For that matter, you can just keep doing partial boils. Then all you need in addition to your current equipment is a mash tun (or grain bag if you want to do MIAB).

Granted, you'll take an efficiency hit with the smaller boil volume, but who really cares?

 

[Wakadaka]

I think you have overlooked a few possibilites. First ruling out aluminum especially in that price range is crazy. I got my pot from amazon and it is big enough to do a full boil. Also aluminum transfers heat better. I get a full boil on my electric stove when I have the pot over two burners.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00062VZMY/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I do BIAB, but if you have the cooler anyways and want to convert it it wouldn't hurt. And a propane burner would be great to have, but isn't 100% needed. I would love to be able to use one outside, and save a lot of time getting to a boil and cleaning up, but I live in a small condo with no outdoor space so its not an option. My stove works fine.

I also don't have an immersion chiller and still use an ice bath. Probably not the most effective way of doing it, and a chiller is my next expected investment, but it works for me. One big tip for doing that is to reduce your boil volume below your target. The difference between a full 100% boil and a maybe 85% boil shouldn't be that big of a deal, and I don't have much trouble getting about 4.5 gallons down to 95-100F in my sink. After that I put about a gallon of frozen water directly in the pot, and cycle ice through my sink.

And small batches are another good idea to try too. If I were you I would get a cheap bag and a pot like the one I got, and give Deathbrewers stove-top AG method a try, aiming for about 4-5 gallons post boil. See how well the chilling works, see if its something you can live with, and then go from there.

 

[rollinred]

Yeah man. You have three ways I see working the best.

1) Get a turkey fryer with a big enough aluminum pot. The aluminum is completely acceptable. This would be the only way I can see you doing full all grain.

2) Just do partial boils and top off with water. As stated above you will need a bigger grain bill (bigger than full boil that is) because of lost efficiency in the mash but you will get the same results.

3) Get rid of the idea of all grain for the moment and start doing partial mash. I think this would be your best option. You will hardly notice a taste difference, you cut down brewing time, and PM is more forgiving due to the fact that you can adjust gravity with DME before the boil to get the exact same results every time. And you probably have everything you need to do it already.


I would build a DIY immersion chiller. Worth every penny.

 

[Pappers_]

Sounds like you've given some thought to this and I think the responses you've received are good.

Have you considered why you want to do all-grain? You can make extraordinary beers with either extract/steeping grains or partial mashes. If you're like me, it might be a desire to get more deeply into the process of brewing. If that is the case, you might consider two other areas to focus on, until all-grain is more feasible for you - fermentation temperature control and yeast management. These related areas hugely impact the outcome of your brewing.

You could work on how to control your temps by using a swamp cooler, building a son-of-fermentation-cooler or a fermentation chamber. You could start getting the minimal equipment around for making yeast starters or washing, storing and reusing yeast.

Just some ideas to give you other things to focus on.

 

[joelabe05]

This is my first real posting here, but I've been around brewing for a few years. My experience was very much the same as yours. I'm as cheap as they come, but I wanted to get into AG for a couple different reasons (better taste, more control over flavor, I'm a science nerd...) and found that BIAB allowed me to but one additional item for $3.50 - paint strainer bags.

I've recently brewed an amber ale all grain using that method and just scaled the recipe to 3.5 gallons to be able to use my 20 qt pot. Let me tell you, the mash was right up to the top of my pot, but it worked. I ended up just shy of 70% efficiency as well.

So, the moral of the story from me is that for a couple bucks - literally - you can do AG. A chiller is a good addition like some have said, but I chilled small volumes in the ice bath pretty easily.

For the size of investment, you can always try it once and see if it's something you want to expand on. If not you're only out a few bucks...

 

[jonstewartstwin]

if everyone seems cool w/aluminum, what are the SS concerns?

 

[scoundrel]

Check out http://www.learntobrew.com/store/item/10n6c/-_Chillers_Pumps/Copper_Immersion_Chiller_or_Cooler_25_Feet_with_Garden_Hose_Fittings.html for the wort chiller. Copper tubing alone and everything else needed will bring the price to around $30. This is $46 shipped. I know that its more than you're looking to spend now but down the road its worth picking up. It's the cheapest I've seen. I have one and it works great. Cools 6 gallons down in about 5 minutes.

 

[Homercidal]

Yeah, lots of options. I think BIAB is a real good way to start doing smaller AG batches. And I second that yeast health, cell count, and fermentation temps trump just about everything else, so no matter how you make your wort, make sure you have the yeast healthy and living in the right climate for their needs.

You could do BIAB AG brewing right now with the very small initial investment of 1 or 2 paint strainer bags. And still be able to buy that DIY or prebuilt IC chiller. I did BIAB couple of weeks go because I didn't feel like digging out all my stuff just to make some starter wort. It's a neat and easy process.

Maybe take a look at a "swamp cooler" that you can make for a couple of dollars. It's a cheap and effective method of controlling, or limiting, your fermentation temperature. it only requires you to swap some pop bottles frozen with water in them twice a day.

 

[ehedge20]

I have a brutus 10 and my buddy has what you just described (bare bones) and is mashing in a cooler. He makes beer that tastes just as good as mine. Although he can not control the temp of the mash however which makes it difficult to brew to style. He does however upgrade little by little.

 

[onipar]

Wow, I'm, overwhelmed by the amount of quality suggestions and advice everyone has given. Thank you so much! :rockin:

You've all given me a ton to think about, and plenty of options of how to movie forward.

I've been planning to use a swamp cooler over the summer, since temps in my house (no air conditioning) have been slowly rising. I have a cooler and fan, which I think is about all I need except the frozen water bottles and maybe a t-shirt to drape over the fermenter.

While I don't have a way of keeping the temp exact, I've been pretty happy with using my garage for a good range between 62-68 degrees, though in early spring it did drop lower at one point.

I think the partial boil, partial mash, and BIAB suggestions are all valid, and this is probably where I'll start. The partial mash/BIAB methods are especially a good way for me to get a taste without any extra major purchases.

Oh, and the yeast thing. Another great suggestion, and something I was thinking about playing around with. Previously, I used dry yeast that I didn't think was worth harvesting, but this next batch I'm doing with liquid yeast, so I may try this time.

And yeah, I'm interested in going AG more because when I get into a hobby, I like to experience all it has to offer. Also, I like the idea of doing things from scratch.

In the past I've harvested wild yeast to make my own sourdough bread, grew my own cucumbers to make my own pickles, and so on. I guess I like knowing how things are made, from their most basic elements.

Again, thanks so much for all the advice. I may go for that aluminum pot on Amazon too. Seems like a good starting point.

 

[Chrisl77]

I got my 10 gal 4 mil thick aluminum pot off ebay for $40 shipped. The pot is nice and thick.

 

[Clann]

Oh, and the yeast thing. Another great suggestion, and something I was thinking about playing around with. Previously, I used dry yeast that I didn't think was worth harvesting, but this next batch I'm doing with liquid yeast, so I may try this time.

I wash my dry yeast all the time(notty, s-04, us-05)
At that point its liquid yeast

 

[JonM]

+1

Do 2.5 gallon batches and you need very little extra equipment! I am all about the 2.5 gallon batches as I like variety, and love to brew!

I'm with you - I got into AG with, maybe 60 bucks of new gear b/c I do 2.5 gallon batches. (and that included a wortchiller)

Something else to think about: when I started AG, I learned so much so fast, and always wanted to experiment. Because I was learning so much, even batches that were my favorites when I first tried them soon became kinda boring. The reason is as soon as I'd taste it I'd say, "wow this is great! Now how do I improve it?" and as soon as I'd figure out how to improve it, the new and improved version became much more interesting than the old one. If I had five gallons of every batch, I'd be stuck with a lot of beer that had become boring.

Anyway, like brettwasbtb says, small batches = more variety and more opportunities to experiment without being overwhelmed by waaaaay too much bottled beer.

 

[onipar]

I wash my dry yeast all the time(notty, s-04, us-05)
At that point its liquid yeast

Yeah, the dry yeast I had was from under the cap of a can of LME. Plus it was my fist batch.

So do you have a bunch of different types of washed yeast around for the different styles of beer you brew?

JonM, another good point. I'm really starting to like the sound of the 2.5 gallon batches.

Do you adapt 5 gallon recipes yourself, or is there a source for these 2.5 gallon recipes?

 

[beerkrump]

If you want to put off on getting the chiller, look into No Chill.

My 2¢ -- Save and get something that will last a while and not need to be upgraded. If you go cheap, you'll be buying the cheap item and the nice item to replace it. In the end, it wasn't cheaper.

 

[Clann]

Yeah, the dry yeast I had was from under the cap of a can of LME. Plus it was my fist batch.

So do you have a bunch of different types of washed yeast around for the different styles of beer you brew?

Notty, s-04, us-05 is all Ive got. As for different styles and yeast I just say to my self, self hmmm, what to use...... this one and pitch. I dont normaly brew to style.

 

[noggins]

cheapest entry? Two words: Craigslist and Patience

 

[onipar]

Notty, s-04, us-05 is all Ive got. As for different styles and yeast I just say to my self, self hmmm, what to use...... this one and pitch. I dont normaly brew to style.

Right on. I'll try washing the yeast this time to save for my next batches.

beerkrump, Yeah, that's why I wanted to get a 10 gallon rather than 7.5 gallon pot. The No chill method looks interesting.

 

[JonM]

JonM, another good point. I'm really starting to like the sound of the 2.5 gallon batches.

Do you adapt 5 gallon recipes yourself, or is there a source for these 2.5 gallon recipes?

Yep, I just cut a 5-gal recipe in half. Everything scales. And with some brewing software (or pen and paper even) you can scale recipes to any size you want - 3 gal, 3.5, 4, you're only limited by how much your kitchen stove can boil.

When you shrink a batch, there's some minor change in hop utilization but it's so small I don't even worry about it.

 

[mr_bell]

Do you adapt 5 gallon recipes yourself, or is there a source for these 2.5 gallon recipes?

As I continue to work on my copper manifold for my MLT, I've done some 2.5 gallon all grain, stovetop, BIAB batches. I had done some partial mashes, and figured since I was mashing, why not try a small all grain batch? Really not that big of a step.

I've used beer smith to scale the recipes appropriately--to answer your question. I have a chiller, but for these small batches I cooled in a utility sink with ice water.

My only complaint is the 2.5 gallon batch size--if the beer turns out good, there's not many to go around. And they have been really good!

I would readily admit that it was exciting to do the all grain thing, even on a small scale like this, and this method is a great way to try it out.

 

[onipar]

Thanks, JonM and Mr Bell. I wsa hoping it was a simple matter of splitting recipes in half, but I'll give that beer smith site a gander too.

Yeah, I can see how only having a case of a particular style might be disappointing if the beer came out really good.

I still have this one Nut Brown kit I got from my LHBS to do over the weekend, so I have some time before I;ll be able to do another batch, but I think I'll try a partial mash first to get the procedure down (and have a full 5 gallon batch), then try a 2.5 gallon AG batch.

Seems reasonable I guess. Hell, considering I haven't even done my second batch yet, I have plenty of time.

 

[rollinred]

My 2¢ -- Save and get something that will last a while and not need to be upgraded. If you go cheap, you'll be buying the cheap item and the nice item to replace it. In the end, it wasn't cheaper.

Read what this guy wrote many many times. Any money you spend now on all grain you will want to upgrade soon after. I know it doesn't sound like it but you will.

Brew in a bag is great, but soon your going to want to upgrade to a better pot and all of that.

I really do think in your situation partial mash is going to be the bee's knees because it allows you to learn all of your grain flavors, you can change the whole brew around with a couple grain changes, and you will likely spend no more than $50 including building a chiller.

Also with partial mash, if you decide to upgrade, every single penny you spent on this stuff will be used in the move to AG. If you want to save money, PM is the next step up for you without even needed to buy a new pot. Next upgrade you buy a pot to do full boils on your PM. Then when you go AG you just convert your cooler to a MLT then your done. All the while taking only small hits on the wallet with no waste.

 

[onipar]

Also with partial mash, if you decide to upgrade, every single penny you spent on this stuff will be used in the move to AG. If you want to save money, PM is the next step up for you without even needed to buy a new pot. Next upgrade you buy a pot to do full boils on your PM. Then when you go AG you just convert your cooler to a MLT then your done. All the while taking only small hits on the wallet with no waste.

Perfect, thank you! Yes, this is definitely the route I'll go. I'll finish my kits, then partial mash, and so on.

Doing it a little at a time will work perfectly.