Carbonating in bottle with sugar cubes?

[ProfessorWoland]

Hi

Tried this in the Bottling/Kegging forum but no answer. I suppose it's a n00b question so I'll try here

I carbonate by bottling after primary with one Coopers Carbonation Drop per 500ml PET bottle.

I remember reading someone who said he just used one sugar cube per bottle.

1. Is this wise?

2. Would you have to worry about infections from older sugar cubes?

Thank

 

[twistr25]

I don't see why it would particularly matter other than the risk for infection. Cooper's drops are also 73% sugar and 27% glucose, so you may need to add slightly more of the sugar to get the same result (I would think anyway). Have you tried batch priming or not a fan?

 

[TheZymurgist]

I think drops are designed to dissolve quickly, and I'm wondering how effectively sugar cubes would dissolve. I would say try it one one, but make sure to put the bottle in a closed container in case it explodes.

 

[woozy]

I don't think infection from sugar is a high risk. The cooper drops aren't sanitized and when you add table sugar directly (as per Mr. Beer) the sugar isn't sanitized either.

I think sugar by its nature is anti-bacterial. It might even act as a sanitizer. At any rate I don't see sugar cubes being a problem.

"I think drops are designed to dissolve quickly, and I'm wondering how effectively sugar cubes would dissolve."

Oh, surely the exact opposite must be true? The drops are hard candy like lemon drops and cubes are meant to dissolve in (admittedly hot) tea. Well, maybe they were designed to dissolve quickly but table sugar wasn't and that's used carb directly. Would it really matter how effectively it dissolves as it'll certainly dissolve completely within a couple days?

"Have you tried batch priming or not a fan?"

What's to be a fan of? It's messy, complicated, and a sanitation and oxidation risk. The big advantage is consistancy and eliminating margin of error and controling carbonation volumes. Table sugar is messy and inconsistant and ... fussy. Drops are easy and clean but preposterously expensive. I wish I had thought of sugar cubes.

 

[twistr25]

I assumed the Cooper's drops were in a sanitized bag or container, I have not used those. I typically add my priming sugar to boiling water first to eliminate the possibility.

 

[freisste]

I think sugar by its nature is anti-bacterial. It might even act as a sanitizer.

What?

Please, please, PLEASE, nobody try sugar as a sanitizer.

 

[TheZymurgist]

I don't think infection from sugar is a high risk. The cooper drops aren't sanitized and when you add table sugar directly (as per Mr. Beer) the sugar isn't sanitized either.

I think sugar by its nature is anti-bacterial. It might even act as a sanitizer. At any rate I don't see sugar cubes being a problem.

"I think drops are designed to dissolve quickly, and I'm wondering how effectively sugar cubes would dissolve."

Oh, surely the exact opposite must be true? The drops are hard candy like lemon drops and cubes are meant to dissolve in (admittedly hot) tea. Well, maybe they were designed to dissolve quickly but table sugar wasn't and that's used carb directly. Would it really matter how effectively it dissolves as it'll certainly dissolve completely within a couple days?

Not sure where you're getting your information, but I've never heard anything about sugar being anti-bacterial. If it were to act as a sanitizer, beer would never get infected, since it's full of sugar. That's my thought, anyway.

Just because the drops are hard doesn't mean they'll dissolve less quickly than a sugar cube. Try sticking them in water side-by-side. I would bet a hefty sum that the drop dissolves quicker than the sugar cube. And you can't really compare either to loose sugar because there's far more surface area on the loose sugar to allow the molecules to be pulled apart, causing it to dissolve more quickly.

 

[woozy]

I assumed the Cooper's drops were in a sanitized bag or container, I have not used those. I typically add my priming sugar to boiling water first to eliminate the possibility.

I don't know if the bag the come in is sanitized but once you open them they no longer are and the instructions do not come with *any* comment about storage and cleaning.

What?

Please, please, PLEASE, nobody try sugar as a sanitizer.

Okay, very *poor* choice in wording. I meant that sugar might repel and kill infections and the bacteria and organism that cause them. I don't know if it does or doesn't.

 

[freisste]

Sugar will certainly not kill any infection. That WOULD make it a sanitizer (by definition), right?

In general, I think it is pretty safe to add dry sugar to a brew. This is NOT because sugar is *antibacterial*. It is just unlikely to have bacteria live on it because it is very dry.

 

[ACbrewer]

Sugar will certainly not kill any infection. That WOULD make it a sanitizer (by definition), right?

In general, I think it is pretty safe to add dry sugar to a brew. This is NOT because sugar is *antibacterial*. It is just unlikely to have bacteria live on it because it is very dry.

Exactly this. Sugar it self is needed by just about everything to live. We convert various sugars to energy, BUT for bacteria (and us) it needs to be in solution ie water. If you look at honey (liquid) it is to dry for bacteria to grow in it. It has bacteria in it, but in lower quantities and non reproducing because it is dry.

 

[woozy]

Not sure where you're getting your information, but I've never heard anything about sugar being anti-bacterial. If it were to act as a sanitizer, beer would never get infected, since it's full of sugar. That's my thought, anyway.

I had this discussion before about why you don't sanitize carb drops. The consensus (which isn't authority) was that sugar and the surface of sugar is inhospitable to bacteria and infectious organism.

I've never had a beer or wort that was as "full of sugar" as a carbonation drop or a sugar cube was. I've never had a beer that was 25% sugar much less 94%.

Just because the drops are hard doesn't mean they'll dissolve less quickly than a sugar cube. Try sticking them in water side-by-side. I would bet a hefty sum that the drop dissolves quicker than the sugar cube.

You might be right. Then again you might not be. But you might be.

And you can't really compare either to loose sugar because there's far more surface area on the loose sugar to allow the molecules to be pulled apart, causing it to dissolve more quickly.

I don't think that's true. Cube sugar is just grains adhered together. When immersed in liquid, the liquid imediately works its way into the interior of the cube so they both have more or less the same surface area. I think that *would* be true of the carb drops _unless_ the carb drops are designed to dissolve quicker.

Someone should experiment on this.

But it doesn't matter. A sugar cube will dissolve within a day.

 

[woozy]

In general, I think it is pretty safe to add dry sugar to a brew. This is NOT because sugar is *antibacterial*. It is just unlikely to have bacteria live on it because it is very dry.

By that logic anything that is dry would be sanitary.

 

[woozy]

According to this and other like it sugar has

The most notable is simple osmosis, or dehydration. Salt or sugar, whether in solid or aqueous form, attempts to reach equilibrium with the salt or sugar content of the food product with which it is in contact. This has the effect of drawing available water from within the food to the outside and inserting salt or sugar molecules into the food interior. The result is a reduction of the so-called product water activity (aw), a measure of unbound, free water molecules in the food that is necessary for microbial survival and growth.​

I think sugar *would* make a good sanitizer but the concentrations would have to be ridiculously high. Otherwise it'd simply act as microbe food.

 

[ACbrewer]

By that logic anything that is dry would be sanitary.

Not quite - anything dry is not a growth medium for the bacteria we are concerned about in beer -Or generally cooking, we don't sanatize our dishes before eating.

What happens is if the bacteria has nothing to eat, it goes dormant until some food makes itself available. In the case of dinner plate (or glasses) we consume the food (and bacteria) quickly enough that any reproduction going on usually gets shutdown by our stomache acid in fairly quick order. Wort however is basically a giant gel plate waiting for an infection.

So while dry surfaces are not non-bacterial (ie having no bacteria) or anti-bacteria (killing them) they are suffecently low bacteral for cooking, and in the case of sugar, priming. The risk of beer spoilage from the priming sugar isn't enough to warrent special consideration to deal with it

 

[user 144271]

The reason sugar APPEARS to be anti bacterial and anti insect is do to the low water content. Low water activity does not support bacteria growth.
Water activity is a measurement of water available to bacteria. This is why Honey is shelf stable.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_activity

 

[woozy]

So while dry surfaces are not non-bacterial (ie having no bacteria) or anti-bacteria (killing them) they are suffecently low bacteral for cooking, and in the case of sugar, priming. The risk of beer spoilage from the priming sugar isn't enough to warrent special consideration to deal with it

The surface area of my dry thermometer is less than the surface area of my priming sugar. Both are equally dry. Why is the risk of beer spoilage from the priming sugar (which *stays* in the beer) less than the risk my thermometer (which dips in for a minute and is then removed).

 

[flars]

Sugar is a preservative. We can water bath process jams and jellies, without testing for acidity, because of the high amount of sugar used. Acid is added to some recipes just for the formation of a gel from the pectin.

 

[TheZymurgist]

Way to completely derail the OP's thread, guys.

OP: Back to the topic at hand, if it were me, I would try a sugar cube in one bottle, and set it in a closed container of some sort to protect against explosions. It's certainly worth the experiment, unless someone else chimes in with actual experience in trying this.

 

[CBMbrewer]

Cooper's drops are also 73% sugar and 27% glucose

Glucose is sugar. The word you are looking for is dextrose.

sugar by its nature is anti-bacterial. It might even act as a sanitizer.

Ha! That's funny...

 

[woozy]

The reason sugar APPEARS to be anti bacterial and anti insect is do to the low water content. Low water activity does not support bacteria growth.
Water activity is a measurement of water available to bacteria. This is why Honey is shelf stable.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_activity

Right. But my metal spoon has even less water content than honey does.

Yet my metal spoon is covered with organisms that'll get into my beer when I stir it. Sugar supposedly is not. My limited understanding is this is because sugar (wet[*] or dry) has a dehydrating effect that inhibits microbal growth which my dry metal metal spoon does not.

[*] Of course, if the sugar is *very* wet the extra water will counter this effect.

 

[twistr25]

Glucose is sugar. The word you are looking for is dextrose.

Sorry, instead of sugar I meant Sucrose. I found that off another site. Either way those are processed slightly differently, but it may not matter at all. I would still think the concentration of those drops would be greater than that of a sugar cube. But I'm all for giving it a whirl

 

[CBMbrewer]

I think sugar *would* make a good sanitizer but the concentrations would have to be ridiculously high.

Ha! you crack me up Woozy.

But seriously, sugar will theoretically keep forever as long as it stays dry. But the fact is LOTS of spoiling bacteria, specifically in this case in beer, FEED on sugar.
If I were to "sanitize" a jar with sugar and leave another jar clean (no visible debris) but not sanitized by any means and set them side by side, the "sanitized" jar would grow microorganisms much quicker then the other, Because of the sugar.

 

[woozy]

OP: Back to the topic at hand, if it were me, I would try a sugar cube in one bottle, and set it in a closed container of some sort to protect against explosions. It's certainly worth the experiment, unless someone else chimes in with actual experience in trying this.

A sugar cube is 1 teaspoon of granulated sugar. We know perfectly well what priming with a teaspoon of sugar to a bottle does so I'm not sure I see the nescesity of protecting against explosions. (Although it's always a good idea to protect against explosions.)

 

[woozy]

Ha! you crack me up Woozy.

If I were to "sanitize" a jar with sugar and leave another jar clean (no visible debris) but not sanitized by any means and set them side by side, the "sanitized" jar would grow microorganisms much quicker then the other, Because of the sugar.

I never said it was a *no-rinse* sanitizer.

So that would make a good experiment. "sanitize" a jar with sugar and rinse it (with luke warm water). Take a clean jar and rinse it. Take a clean jar and not rinse it. fill each with beer and seal with a sanitized (a real sanitized) airlock and see which grow the least bacteria. I'm not going to bet any money on it but I wouldn't be surprised if the sugar washed jar out performs.

 

[J187]

I'm a huge fan of batch priming. It's much easier and cheaper. I don't find it messy in the least, and I hate the idea of counting off 50 drops and wondering if I missed one, double dropped one, etc. Batch priming is simple, consistent, and inexpensive. Sign me up.

 

[ProfessorWoland]

I assumed the Cooper's drops were in a sanitized bag or container, I have not used those. I typically add my priming sugar to boiling water first to eliminate the possibility.

The starter kit I got was a Coopers one that only has one FV. I've never tried batch priming and haven't thought it to be necessary so far.

I'm thinking of getting a second FV but that's only so I can brew two different batches at the same time.

 

[DrunkleJon]

OP - Sugar cubes should work if you can get them into the bottles.

Everyone else arguing the sanitation of sugar. This has been discussed before. Sugar used to be used as a battlefield dressing as in high enough concentrations it has antiseptic properties. Dry sugar/carbonation drops have such low amounts of moisture (just as salt does) that it dessicates(dehydrates) the nasties and effectively kills them.

See https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/jailhose-lawyers-sanitation-carbonation-drops-413488/ for one of the past threads about the sanitation of sugar.

 

[woozy]

OP - Sugar cubes should work if you can get them into the bottles.

sugar cubes are 5/8 of an inch per side. That's .88 inches across the diagonal. A bottle mouth is a little over an inch in diameter. It'll go in; no problem.

Hmm, I might try this if I ever get the urge to use my bottling vessel as a third fermenter in use.

 

[evrose]

Cooper's drops are also 73% sugar and 27% glucose,

?????

Sugar IS glucose.

?????

 

[evrose]

I'm a huge fan of batch priming. It's much easier and cheaper. I don't find it messy in the least, and I hate the idea of counting off 50 drops and wondering if I missed one, double dropped one, etc. Batch priming is simple, consistent, and inexpensive. Sign me up.

This.

I'm not sure what the point of using sugar cubes is. It's more work, less consistent, and generally a total pain compared to batch priming. Aside from some rather hilarious claims about sugar and bacteria in this thread, I really do have to ask what value the OP is hoping to get out of doing his priming the most difficult and least controllable way possible.