Carbon monoxide hazards are real

[JoePolvino]

I brew in my basement and have a co monitor right by my brew area

Same here. I keep a CO detector, fire extinguisher, and a cordless phone nearby. Take a look at my around 3:58 to see the fan panel I made that fits in my basement walkout door frame.

Even in a garage with the door open, I'd suggest opening a window and using a fan to move fresh air in.

 

[Loweface]

Co != Co2 ............

CO is Carbon Monoxide formed mainly by the incomplete combustion of fuels. In the above example from dirty burner and a stiffled flame...

CO2 is Carbon Dioxide formed from the complete combustion of all fossil fuels be it propane or natural gas or even biofuels. It too is dangerous. Technically it is toxic but we can exhale it so it's danger is that it displaces the oxygen from the air (normal O2 count in air is only about 21% by volume) we breath. If the O2 concentration falls we see similar effects to CO poisoning... See http://siri.uvm.edu/ppt/confspc1/sld011.htm

 

[BG73395]

We rent our home in Colorado,, it is an older place. We have an older stove in here and the property management company put a Carbon monoxide detector in our small living room(near the kitchen). Last year SWMBO made me dinner for my birthday and the detector went crazy. We called the fire depatment and sure enough the levels where high in the house. The stove wasnt set properly for high altitude( we live at 8800 ft above sea level) ...after that I will always have one in the house.

 

[calpyro]

I work as a fireman and I know first hand the effects of CO. I have been subjected to CO throughout my 25 year career and I have become sensitized to the cumulative exposures. In short, the more that I have been exposed, the more sensitive I have become. Now after 25 years, simply walking into a room with CO will cause me to become almost immediately dizzy. Many people are subjecting themselves to levels of CO that will sensitize their bodies and will become, like me, ultra-sensitive.

Also at work, I perform fire inspections in a large commercial and industrial area that frequently uses propane and other heating gasses for supplemental heating. Out of curiosity, I bring our fire department CO monitor (very sophisticated six-gas monitor) to sample the atmosphere. Propane heaters, burners, un-vented furnaces and other gas devices all produce large amounts of CO. In the last year due to our monitoring, we have evacuated seven buildings during routine fire inspections due to dangerous levels of CO.

People seem to just not understand that these propane burners produce dangerous levels of CO.
When I get together with other home brewers and brew inside, I almost immediately feel the effects of CO. While I don't have access to my CO monitor, from experience I can tell that as soon as I get light-headed, the CO level is already at dangerous levels.

My advice is NEVER use a propane burner inside without large amounts of ventilation. A fan or window opening simply won't be adequate. The size of burners home brewers are using would require a commercial stove vent hood arrangement to keep up with the CO produced. If brewing in a garage, leave the door completely open. Brewing in a basement in my opinion is suicide. CO is heavier than air and will fill the basement with invisible poison gas. Children and pets can easily be overcome with CO that accumulates in low areas. A child playing on the floor, or a person sitting in a chair will unknowingly expose themselves to potentially deadly levels of CO.

This stuff is real. I and many of my coworkers have been hospitalized due to CO and most dead fire victims succumb first to CO. If you need to brew indoors, leave the garage door up and put on a coat if it is cold. Keeping yourself warm in a bath of CO is a losers game.

 

[Stratotankard]

IIRC, the sensors in CO detectors depleted by use. Can you confirm or deny?

If so, a CO unit might last a lifetime in a house, but need to be replaced much sooner in a higher-CO environment like a brewery.

As I understand it, the electronic CO detectors deplete fairly slowly (7year replacement), but the little sticky color change disks go much faster (6 months)
The color change ones (often sold to pilots to monitor for exhaust getting into the cabins of small planes) are very inexpensive, but you have to look at them to know if somethings wrong. Not a problem in a small plane where you can stick it on the glare shield.

Terje

 

[thebrewguy]

Great post!! I am going to add one to my euipment also!! I usually have 3 doors open when i brew!! I am adding a couple windows so i will put some fans in those also next time!!
Thanks for the post & all the info everybody!!

 

[rico567]

"It can be given off by home appliances or even a car in an attached garage."

....which leads to one of my favorite cautions, which is the aforementioned garage. Attached garages are a "convenient menace," as far as I'm concerned, and I wouldn't buy a house with one. We tore down our old detached garage last year, and built a new one on a different foundation....50 feet from the house. People who are meticulous about what their kids eat & drink think nothing of having them sleep above an attached garage. Apart from the CO under discussion, where's the most dangerous stuff in the household generally stored? Think: gasoline, kerosene, thinners, solvents, pesticides, herbicides, propane cylinders, etc. Right the first time!

 

[IanFrank211]

The Effects of Carbon Monoxide
CO

* 35 ppm (0.0035%) Headache and dizziness within six to eight hours of constant exposure
* 100 ppm (0.01%) Slight headache in two to three hours
* 200 ppm (0.02%) Slight headache within two to three hours
* 400 ppm (0.04%) Frontal headache within one to two hours
* 800 ppm (0.08%) Dizziness, nausea, and convulsions within 45 minutes. Insensible within two hours.
* 1,600 ppm (0.16%) Headache, dizziness, and nausea within 20 minutes. Death in less than two hours.
* 3,200 ppm (0.32%) Headache, dizziness and nausea in five to ten minutes. Death within 30 minutes.
* 6,400 ppm (0.64%) Headache and dizziness in one to two minutes. Death in less than 20 minutes.
* 12,800 ppm (1.28%) Unconsciousness after 2-3 breaths[citation needed]. Death in less than three minutes.

 

[gxm]

I wanted to thank whoever decided to make this thread a sticky.

When testing my AG equipment the other day, I realized I could smell something (I know CO is odorless, but if I can smell combustion, I'm probably breathing CO too). I saw this thread, and realized I needed to put the burner next to the open door with a fan blowing out. A detector and a fire extinguisher are on my list for the next run to the hardware store.

 

[kappclark]

Same here. I keep a CO detector, fire extinguisher, and a cordless phone nearby. Take a look at my brewing video around 3:58 to see the fan panel I made that fits in my basement walkout door frame.

Even in a garage with the door open, I'd suggest opening a window and using a fan to move fresh air in.

Joe - Nice video ... I bet your brew is just as nice (smile)

I am thinking abt brewing in basement, but want to be sure I have proper ventilation ... I think I can open 2 bulkhead doors and put a box fan blowing out the window near where the boilpot will be .. I think I will use electric for the HLT ..

Maybe just go all electric .. the CO poisoning issue is a lot bigger than I first thought ..

 

[robumba]

Wouldn't a person have to be insane to use propane indoors anyway, if with a CO2 detector? I mean, CO poisoning is one hazard, an explosion from a small propane leak is another.

I believe the summary is NO BURNING PROPANE INSIDE! EVEN WITH A CARBON MONOXIDE DETECTOR NEARBY!

 

[jamesrm]

I just bought a CO detector that also measures uncombusted gas, which is great if you have a leak develop or anything along those lines, has a digital read out and was not that much more expensive than the CO only version at Lowes.

 

[vtchuck]

NO BURNING PROPANE INSIDE! EVEN WITH A CARBON MONOXIDE DETECTOR NEARBY!

I hear the concerns... I brew in an attached shed with a large gable exhaust fan running & open windows & doors as well a CO detector, but what about people who use propane kitchen stoves??? With 3 or 4 burners going why aren't you exposing yourself to the same dangers... in an enclosed space with only a hood vent running?

I'm just thinking that if you are careful to properly adjust your flame for clean burning and use proper ventilation, you should be OK

 

[drayman86]

I hear the concerns... I brew in an attached shed with a large gable exhaust fan running & open windows & doors as well a CO detector, but what about people who use propane kitchen stoves??? With 3 or 4 burners going why aren't you exposing yourself to the same dangers... in an enclosed space with only a hood vent running?

I'm just thinking that if you are careful to properly adjust your flame for clean burning and use proper ventilation, you should be OK

Maybe OK, maybe not.

The burners on kitchen ranges are manufactured to a higher quality than the typical propane turkey fryer burners a lot of us use on our systems, and therefore are much, much more efficient at completely combusting the propane. Remember, complete combustion of propane (or natural gas) yields only two byproducts: CO2 & H2O. Cast iron burners, especially those that are well used, a bit rusted, or slightly out of adjustment, will not burn the propane completely, hence the CO.

 

[ggoodman]

I have known more than one fellow diver(including myself) who's dove bad gas from dive shop's compressors who's intake were to close to co and co2 emision sources. headache, blackout and or death are usually the result. Be safe.

 

[Bdogg]

A bump,

Does anyone do this on a hi-rise balcony? It is a partially enclosed deal - about 14 feet long, 8 feet high, 5 feet wide, with a 3ft brick railing. So basically there is an opening that is 14 feet by 5 feet. I barbeque out there regularly but have never used it for an hour - and also, the emission source would only be about 10" off the ground in this case rather than 3 feet. Thoughts? I do not have a burner yet, but found one for sale today and was pondering it while I came across this thread.

 

[C2H5OH]

What makes CO dangerous/poisonous, is the fact that hemoglobin has a higher binding affinity for CO than O2. The net effect of the CO binding leaves you suffocated/asphyxiated. The headache response is your brain "screaming" for O2 and if not treated,(removing yourself from the CO source) you subsequently will fall asleep and die.

*Don't try to heat your home with a gas oven/gas burners either.

 

[EO74]

Im in construction and i do hvac.Most of the time in the winter the GCs will run open flame propane or diesel heaters and by the end of most of those days u can tell by the mind ripping headache and light headedness.I personally would never do this in a confined space but is just another construction hazard we deal with to pay the bills.Be safe USE A CARBONMONOXIDE DETECTOR and provide an adiquit supply of fresh air.

 

[Monty420th]

I have always kept one of those monitors in multiple rooms in the house. I have never used anything but the range top to do mine so far so I know I am safe...but that monitor is no more than 5 feet away just in case (dioxide and monoxide monitor)

 

[Zaphod42]

This thread is very confusing. If I believe some then I can only brew outside no matter what. Others think you can brew in an enclosed basement if you do enough ventalation. I have recently switched to AG with propane which I can do outside until the weather turns to ZERO degrees here. Should I just not brew 3 to 4 months out of the year or is it conceivable that with a vent hood and a couple box fans positioned well enough can I try to pull it off in an enclosed basement? The last thing I want to do is endanger my wife and beagle when I could just go buy some beer.

 

[Catt22]

This thread is very confusing. If I believe some then I can only brew outside no matter what. Others think you can brew in an enclosed basement if you do enough ventalation. I have recently switched to AG with propane which I can do outside until the weather turns to ZERO degrees here. Should I just not brew 3 to 4 months out of the year or is it conceivable that with a vent hood and a couple box fans positioned well enough can I try to pull it off in an enclosed basement? The last thing I want to do is endanger my wife and beagle when I could just go buy some beer.

Propane burners can be used indoors safely, but it would violate the fire code in most instances. Using and storing the bulk propane tank indoors is the hazard and the violation, not the burner itself. CO production is typically caused by the depletion of oxygen due to poor ventilation. I brew in my garage in the winter. I always use a digital CO detector when brewing. Most of the time I will keep the garage door closed to keep warm, but occasionally open it partly to bring in fresh air. The CO detector never registers a reading while I'm brewing, but it does when I pull my car into the garage and shut it off, so I know it's working properly.

 

[virginiawolf]

Nice Post Glad You're alright
I have a portable air cooler http://www.trianglefans.com/portable-cooler.php
heading out the storm door but I used to have a few small ones as well which i've been using for other stuff lately. On my last couple brews i was missing those extra fans. I need to bring them back to my brew room for added air flow. This post is a good motivator to bring those extra fans back. Safety 1st is no joke. My recipes are always weighted down because the fan is moving so much air
The portable air cooler is great for drying my floor after mopping up too

 

[BBL_Brewer]

If you can switch over to natural gas....you can avoid alot of the CO...the natural gas burns cleaner and more completely combusts giving off more CO2 than CO. I use three 150,000 BTU jet burners in my system in the basement....somtimes having two crankin at once. I have them hard lined into my gas utility. Not that hard to do if you have nat gas to begin with and a space to plumb more or less permanently. All I do is open a window in the basement and I'm fine. I brew in the winter only when its cold and the temp dif makes for great air exchange. I would like to get a fire extingusher though...lol

 

[Catt22]

If you can switch over to natural gas....you can avoid alot of the CO...the natural gas burns cleaner and more completely combusts giving off more CO2 than CO.

This is not entirely true. You can become just as dead with either gas if the burners are oxygen starved. IOW, an oxygen starved natural gas burner can be every bit as deadly as an oxygen starved propane burner.

Stole this from Wiki on the subject:

"Propane undergoes combustion reactions in a similar fashion to other alkanes. In the presence of excess oxygen, propane burns to form water and carbon dioxide.

C3H8 + 5 O2 → 3 CO2 + 4 H2O + heat

propane + oxygen → carbon dioxide + water

When not enough oxygen is present for complete combustion, incomplete combustion occurs when propane burns and forms water, carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, and carbon.

2 C3H8 + 7 O2 → 2 CO2 + 2 CO + 2 C + 8 H2O + heat

Propane + Oxygen → Carbon dioxide + Carbon monoxide + Carbon + Water

Unlike natural gas, propane is heavier than air (1.5 times as dense). In its raw state, propane sinks and pools at the floor. Liquid propane will flash to a vapor at atmospheric pressure and appears white due to moisture condensing from the air.

When properly combusted, propane produces about 50 MJ/kg. The gross heat of combustion of one normal cubic meter of propane is around 91 megajoules[10]

Propane is nontoxic; however, when abused as an inhalant it poses a mild asphyxiation risk through oxygen deprivation. Commercial products contain hydrocarbons beyond propane, which may increase risk. Commonly stored under pressure at room temperature, propane and its mixtures expand and cool when released and may cause mild frostbite.

Propane combustion is much cleaner than gasoline combustion, though not as clean as natural gas combustion. The presence of C–C bonds, plus the multiple bonds of propylene and butylene, create organic exhausts besides carbon dioxide and water vapor during typical combustion. These bonds also cause propane to burn with a visible flame.

Greenhouse gas emissions factors for propane are 62.7 kg CO2/ mBTU or 1.55 kg of CO2 per liter or 73.7 kg/GJ"

The bottom line is that both propane and natural gas burners can be operated safely so long as they are properly maintained and supplied with sufficient oxygen.

 

[Jerrycan1]

I have to agree. Many modern homes have a wide variety of natural gas appliances that operate safely in an "unvented" installation.
I see people have posted that they have used "extra" ventilation without much elaboration.
There is a way to caculate how much air exchange you need.
Automotive garages and welding shops come under local workers comp regulations and you could use those, or you can refer to the American Society of Heating, Refrigeration, Airconditioning Engineers standards for a building of similar purpose. Based on the size of your space, you could calculate how many cfm are necessary to achieve the required air exchange and stave off disaster.

 

[tangofoxtrot308]

I know I'm going to get gigged for this but.... I live in a 3rd story appartment and we aren't allowed to have any combustables at all. With that said since my patio is facing a small wooded area away from the road I thought I could boil outside without issue, but people being the way they are and the guy downstairs not liking me. I decided to start brewing with my propane burner in my kitchen. When I boiled the water to oxidize my pots I noticed my CM alarm went off so on my first brew I have a portable fan I set up circulating the air. When it stops being 100 I'llm open the patio doors and problem solved till next year. It's really not bad doesn't generate that much heat even in a 90min boil. I checked the floor and surround walls for hot spots, nothing. I did notice the air was better with the fan!:cross:

 

[Rodenlager]

Exhaust fan & intake fan...don't brew inside without one. Intake of fresh air is more important than exhaust, but not having either is just plain stupid.

 

[johntappa]

Could someone more knowledgeable than I recommend a good place to purchase a CO monitor. Are they a dime a dozen, or are there better and worse models out there? Is this a HD or Lowe's run, or should I be ordering online?

Thanks

I personally ordered the Protech 8505 commercial CO monitor. It only has a 2 year life, but that's because it monitors CO down to 10 ppm and goes into alarm at 30 ppm. It's originally manufactured to keep U.S. businesses compliant with OSHA and NIOSH. It has a digital display and automatically displays any CO detected above 9 ppm. Most residential detectors that you buy in HD or Lowes, will not alarm until they have read 70 ppm for over an hour. There are multiple places that sell this particular monitor but I purchased my CO monitor at ProTech 8505 DC Powered Commercial CO Monitor. They shipped it out on the same day I ordered, and they were available to answer my questions regarding where to install it and how to recall memory from the unit. Good Luck!

 

[Logzor]

Quick question: How do you know if complete combustion is not achieved and would you smell natural gas in the event that complete combustion was not occurring?

During my first brew this past weekend I noticed that the flames on my burner were coming out really far, they looked complete disconnected from the actual burner. What was happening? I opened up the window thinking it wasn't getting enough oxygen.

Sometime after the process my CO2 detector (actually it will detect multiple types of gasses) went off...the thing is that it's super sensitive. If you spill a beer or even set a glass of liquor within 10 feet it will go off.

Sounds like mine may have gone off due to high co2 level. I never felt light-headed at any point.

 

[TristanLowery]

Just wanted to quickly add my story to this really important thread.

It's been said here before but it bears repetition - carbon monoxide is a danger even if you aren't using propane or brewing in a basement. I brew in a small NYC apartment on a standard home model, 4-burner natural gas range. Normally my boil heats up the place so much that I open all the windows, my front door and turn on my AC's fan whenever I brew, even in the dead of winter. But the other night, it was so cold and my place has been a it chilly lately, so I left everything closed during an especially long boil. After about two hours, one of my two CO alarms went off and indicated a level of 91 ppm. I immediately opened all the windows and doors, walked outside and called the fire department. I suspected my brewing had caused this CO level but my place just got a new boiler the week before so I wanted to be sure. The FD showed up in minutes, by which my alarm had dropped back down to 0 ppm, which their monitor confirmed as well. They checked out everything and told me just not to "cook" for that long without opening some windows. I imagine they see a lot of this in small New York apartments.

Afterwards, a fellow apartment brewer told me he'd been setting off his CO alarm while brewing until he installed a fan and opened the windows on brew day.

Don't think you're safe just because you brew in your kitchen, or use natural gas rather than propane..

Keep your brewspace well-ventilated, have at least one CO alarm nearby and make sure to change the batteries, and be safe.