Can't shake my Horrible Efficiency

[digdan]

So, my latest batch I got a whopping 50% efficiency

I've updated my mashing technique to use strict controled heat that gradually increases. I've tested for starches, and have found none.

My problem must be in my sparging. I batch sparge, or atleast what I think is a batch sparge. This is what I do

After my mash shows no more starches I slowly (VERY SLOWLY) drain off into my brew kettle. Once the grain bed start to compact I close the spigot and fill the lauter tun with 168 degree water. Stir, close the lid and wait for 5 minutes for the grain to resettle. I open the spigot and continue the processes.

I do this about 3 to 5 times.

What could I do to improve this? Should I switch to fly sparging? And whats the most effective (yet economical) approach to improving my processes?

Thanks a ton:fro:

 

[Chairman Cheyco]

Check out this page for improving your sparge process, I think it'll help.

http://www.hbd.org/cascade/dennybrew/

 

[EdWort]

Do you ever stir? I did my second batch sparge and stirred the grains before the vorlauf and after I added my sparge water. Stirring plus going to a 10 gallon cooler made all the difference for me. I hit 74% for the pre-boil wort volume.

 

[Thirstyone]

Equipment and sparge style is important, but you can always add more fermentables to make up for lack of efficiency. I usually add at least an extra pound of bas malt just for kicks

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

You're not really batch or fly sparging...kind of a mish mash (no pun intended). Definitely check out CC's link, it should explain a lot. Also, there's no need to drain slowly when batch sparging, just let it rip and then add another batch of water.

 

[ajf]

I am now an expert on batch sparging. I've done it twice.
First, the starch test can be inaccurate. It shows that there is no starch in the areas tested, but not that conversion is completed throughout the mash.
I simply leave the mash for 60 minutes. The excess time isn't wasted, because I use it preparing for the upcoming activities.

At the end of the mash, you end up with the mash at about 15? degrees (which is much lower than the temperature needed for sparging.

If you add 1 to 1.5g of near boiling water to the mash, and stir well, you will raise the temp of the mash to the required sparge temperature. Add the water slowly while stirring, and check the temp. You don't want to get over 170. When you get to 168, you can add some 168 degree sparge water, stir well, and let is sit for 10 - 15 minutes. The stirring exposes the sugars to the hot water, and the time gives the water a chance to dissolve the sugars.

After it is rested, you should recirculate until the wort is clear. This means that you draw of some running into a suitable container, and then return it to the mash (possibly re-heating the runnings if they have cooled considerably).

When your runnings are clear, you can discharge into the kettle as quickly as you want. With batch sparging, there is no need to discharge slowly.

When the discharge is nearly complete, and the grain bed starts to get compacted. you stop draining, add more sparge water, stir, rest, recirculate, and drain again until you have the desired volume, or until the gravity of the sparge gets down to 1.010 (below that gravity, you start to sparge out a lot of tannins).

IMHO, it is worth doing some experimentation with sparge water temperatures as the transfer mechanism from your heated sparge water to the MLT is never 100% efficient. You need to heat the sparge water to a temperature, that results in 168 degree water arriving in the MLT. In my case (while fly sparging), I heat the initial sparge water to 192 degrees, and add to a cooler, which I use as a HLT to drive a sparge arm. As the cooler isn't big enough for a complete sparge, I have to top it up during the sparge. This requires 185 degree water as not so much heat is lost warming up the cooler.

Hope this helps.

-a.

 

[Musthavbeer]

#1 cause of low efficiency is coarse grain crush.

 

[Beer Snob]

#1 cause of low efficiency is coarse grain crush.

This might be, but remember... there's a learning curve here. Just like when you frst started you needed a few batches to get underway.... same here. Takes a few. It is certainly much esier to blame other things... poor crush for instance, but we are really learing our way around.

 

[clayof2day]

A couple of things to remember about batch sparging, if you go that route. You are making a solution of sugar water that should have sugars evenly distributed throughout it. This means that you can run-off as fast as your system will allow. Also, since we are rinsing all the sugars from the grain at once there are a couple of things you can to do to help. As mentioned above, stir the grain bed before vorlauf to rinse sugars from the grains. Also, when doing the batch sparges, you can use water as warm as 185-190 degrees. With water at this temp. the grain bed will likely reach about 165-170 which is proper mash-out temp and you won't have to worry about tannin extraction. Also, at these higher temps, your sugary wort will be less viscous and will make it easier to rinse the sugars from the grains. If you get a chance, listen to the podcast of the Brewing Network show that feautured Denn Conn. Its got great info about batch sparging and is where most of my suggestions come from.

Matt

 

[digdan]

You guys are great. I'm going to brew this coming weekend with the new knowledge you ppls have provided.

Once again, thanks a million

 

[Desert_Sky]

I usually have the guys at the LHBS crush my grains twice. And I stir the mash every 15 minutes for an hour.

I sparge with 168 and let it sit for 10 minutes. I know you really dont need to for batch sparging, but It gives me time to heat the other 2 gallons of water to 185 for the last sparge, this lets me finish up with about 172 degrees. For my 5 gallon setup, batch is giving me ~73% everytime. Which is working just fine for me right now.

 

[the_bird]

Alright, I asked before and got more confused...


How do I calc my efficiency? What data do I need? If I input my grains and extract into ProMash, along with my OG, can it tell me my efficiency?

 

[Desert_Sky]

yes. well thats the way I do it anyways.

 

[the_bird]

OK, looks like I was around 64% or so, not all that good, but screw it - my first time. It'll get better.

 

[Dude]

OK, looks like I was around 64% or so, not all that good, but screw it - my first time. It'll get better.

Do you batch sparge? That ain't too shabby for a first time. Good info in this thread though. Stirring is always a good idea, and of course the crush. HUGE difference if you don't crush it fine enough. I went from percentages in the upper 60s to high 80s (fly sparging) after I got my own mill.

 

[Desert_Sky]

I went from percentages in the upper 60s to high 80s (fly sparging) after I got my own mill.

Yes, thats my next big upgrade. I ask the guys to crush mine twice, but then I remember the saying, crush till you're scared. And Im really not scared of the crush I get from the HBS.

 

[Dude]

Yes, thats my next big upgrade. I ask the guys to crush mine twice, but then I remember the saying, crush till you're scared. And Im really not scared of the crush I get from the HBS.

I've also had a few stuck sparges because I crushed too fine though. I'd MUCH rather have lower efficiency than go through that BS again. UGH.

 

[Desert_Sky]

true.

I guess the first couple batches I do once I get my mill will be a trial and error to find the best crush for me.

 

[the_bird]

Yeah, I batched sparged. Did two sparges. Might have been a little chicken**** on the water temp, I sparged with 170, I've read since that I could be a little higher than that at least on the last sparge. I did make sure to stir.

I also ended up mashing a little bit longer than I planned (about eighty minutes instead of sixty), since I was also trying to get the stout bottled. Mash temp was a little on the low side, in the proper range but probably closer to 151 - 152 than my 154 target. The cooler did a very good job of holding temp, I don't think it ever dropped below 150, but would the relatively cool mash temp lower my efficiency as well? High-temp = sweeter beer, implying high-temp = more sugars extracted, right?

 

[Desert_Sky]

Mashing at higher temps puts more unfermentable sugars into your wort, so yes, sweeter beer. I did this for my stout, and was very happy with the final results.

For blondes and other lighter body beers, I shoot for about 150-152. I like them to be more on the dry side.

 

[the_bird]

Based on your experience, how much of a difference in my efficiency do you think that mashing at 150-152 would make versus 156-158?

 

[Desert_Sky]

Im not sure how the effeciency will be affected by mashing at different temps. I know your sparge temp makes a difference though.

mash temp affects your mouthfeel and taste more I think

 

[the_bird]

I'm just trying to identify factors that might make the difference between 64% and 75%. I don't WANT a higher mash temp with this brew (don't want it sweet), but it would be good to know if that would have put my efficiency at 68% because of the unfermentable sugars it extracted. All a learning process, just trying to gather as much of the collective wisdom around here to quicken my own learning.

 

[Desert_Sky]

ok don't quote me on this, Im still learning all grain.

even though you extract unfermentable sugars, you are still extracting them. So it will effect your OG and effeciency %. Unfermentable sugars will affect what your FG will be though.

Going to lunch, lets continue this in about an hour.

 

[the_bird]

Understood, which is why I'm thinking that a higher mash temp, all other factors held constant, will equal a higher efficiency (even though many of those sugars won't be fermented). Can anybody confirm this, and help me quantify how much of a difference that might be?

 

[Chairman Cheyco]

High-temp = sweeter beer, implying high-temp = more sugars extracted, right?

Nope, at the higher temperature, the enzyme Alpha amylase is more active than Beta, and it produces more long-chain sugars which are harder for yeast to ferment. On the lower side of the range, beta works better which makes more short-chain sugars, which are easy for yeast to eat.

 

[the_bird]

So, total sugars extracted is unchanged, just they are more fermentable than had the mash occured at higher temps?

OK, that makes sense... would also seem to indicate that mash temp's impact in reported efficiency is likely minimal. Thanks!

 

[Desert_Sky]

Thanks Cheyco, that makes sense.

 

[digdan]

From what I've gathered from ajf and denny conn is that batch sparging is a fine balance between amount of liquid and temprature control.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm going to be making an 12 gallon batch of beer out of 26lbs of grain. This means I'm going to make two sparges that are 6 gallons each. After mashing my temp should be around 154, and needs to be pushed up to 170ish. This means I'm going to need to add around 2 gallons of boiling water... meaning I need 4 gallons after mashing. Calculating in the 0.10gal/lb absorption by the grain I would need to strike with 6.6 gallons of water ( to achive the 4 gallons after mashing). Striking with 6.6 gallons, or (26.4 quarts) of liquor would have a grain to liquid ratio of around ~1.0

Is this correct?

Let me step it out

Strike with 6.6 gallons of water to achive 154 degrees.

(00.10gal/lb absorbsion eats 2.6 gallons of liquor)

After 60 minutes add 2 gallons of boiling water and stir (should be around 170 degrees now, making for 6 gallons total)

Sparge out 6 gallons of wort.

Add 6 gallons of 170ish degree liquor

Stir and wait 10 minutes

Sparge out 6 grains

Finished.

Right?

 

[Chairman Cheyco]

From what I've gathered from ajf and denny conn is that batch sparging is a fine balance between amount of liquid and temprature control.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm going to be making an 12 gallon batch of beer out of 26lbs of grain. This means I'm going to make two sparges that are 6 gallons each. After mashing my temp should be around 154, and needs to be pushed up to 170ish. This means I'm going to need to add around 2 gallons of boiling water... meaning I need 4 gallons after mashing. Calculating in the 0.10gal/lb absorption by the grain I would need to strike with 6.6 gallons of water ( to achive the 4 gallons after mashing). Striking with 6.6 gallons, or (26.4 quarts) of liquor would have a grain to liquid ratio of around ~1.0

Is this correct?

Let me step it out

Strike with 6.6 gallons of water to achive 154 degrees.

(00.10gal/lb absorbsion eats 2.6 gallons of liquor)

After 60 minutes add 2 gallons of boiling water and stir (should be around 170 degrees now, making for 6 gallons total)

Sparge out 6 gallons of wort.

Add 6 gallons of 170ish degree liquor

Stir and wait 10 minutes

Sparge out 6 grains

Finished.

Right?

Okay, for the initial mash at 1.0quarts per lb of grain ratio, you'll need 26quarts (6.5gal) of water. (though Denny goes with 1.2-1.3 q/lb and so do I and it works great.) Denny figures that your initial run-off and your sparge should be the same volume for efficiency's sake, and this makes sense. To achieve this is the tricky part. The initial run-off of your tun with no extra added water will be equal to the strike water volume - the grain absorbtion (0.1gal/lb), in this case 6.5gal-2.6gal=3.9gal.
For a 12 gallon batch, with a 60min boil and a 15% boil off rate, your pre-boil volume should be 13.8gal. So, if we want our two run-offs to be equal in volume and add up to 13.8gal they both need to be 6.9gal. This means that you need to add 6.9gal-3.9gal=3.0gal of near-boiling water for the first run-off (mash out) and then add 6.9gal of hot water to the mash for the second run-off (there will be no absortion on this one since the grain is already wet.)

Any questions?