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Can sufficient bitterness be obtained for an IPA in a 15 minute boil?

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tcbucher

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EDIT: Im brewing with DME :)

Im planning on brewing an IPA. I wanted to do a short boil (20 minutes). I have 3 oz citra, 2 oz Amarillo, and 2 oz Cascade.

I was going to essentially continuously hop 6 oz during the boil for the 20 minutes- first citra, then amarillo, then cascade, and use the remaining oz of cascade to dry hop in secondary. Beer Smith is calculating 62 IBUs, 1062 OG.

I realize that not all IBUs are created equal. So will this heavy late addition result only in aroma? or will this addition create the somewhat bitter, but citrusy, flavorful, high aroma IPA i am hoping it will?
 
Hops boiled for less that 20 mins will only lend flavor and aroma. Not sure what you'd get from a fifteen minute boil, but my guess is you won't get hop utilization. Is there a reason you don't want to boil for an hour?
 
I disagree, I haven't yet tried hop bursting myself, but from what I have read I think that will come out brilliantly!

Though perhaps wait for a more experienced opinion...
 
As I currently understand it,boiling longer than 20 minutes or so lends more bitterness than flavor/aroma from the hops. I personally want more hop flavor/aroma in an IPA.
Or when I want the hops "on the back",so the malt flavors shine as well. DFH seems to do this with the 90min IIPA I tasted.
 
Yes, there's some bitterness to be had from later additions. But IMHO, it can't replace the bittering or FWH addition in an IPA. this is only my opinion as I prefer an IPA with a pronounced bitterness AND alot of hop flavor and aroma.
 
Hop bursting should work fine, provided you use enough hops. However, a totally separate issue is that you should really boil an all-grain beer for longer than 20 minutes. If you are doing all extract then it should be ok.
 
Hop bursting should work fine, provided you use enough hops. However, a totally separate issue is that you should really boil an all-grain beer for longer than 20 minutes. If you are doing all extract then it should be ok.

If you use a hopped extract kit like a cooper's it should be fine I think.

I agree both ways. Helped my wife with a Belgian wit clone that needed a 55min boil. so then,you have to to get the full hop profile "boiled in".
But with extracts,cooper's in particular,a 20 minute boil for aroma & flavor additions works great. I did a 2.5G boil (gunna switch to 3G boil,so boil off winds up at 2.5G,not 2G) to add 1.5lbs of the total of 3lbs of plain DME I use. The total time is about 25-28mins. For ales with hops "on the back",I add 1oz of hops (in a hop sack) at 20 minutes,setting the stove timer.
At 10 minutes,I add .5oz of the 2nd hop. At flame out,I take the BK off the heat,& add the remaining DME,stiring till all lumps are dissolved.
I removed & pressed the other hops before adding the remaining DME.
Then,add the remaining .5oz of the 2nd hop for a 10min steep with the lid on. After that,drain/press hop sack,then add the cooper's can & stir till no more LME can be scraped off the bottom of the BK.
Let steep for 15mins while sanitizing FV,etc. Then chill in ice water bath down to 70F. Pour aggressively into FV,doing the same with top off water. Stir for 5mins or so to mix wort/top off water well. Take hydrometer reading,& pitch yeast/starter. Seal & fill airlock with cheap vodka. Take a good slug of vodka before cleaning up.
 
Bottom line is use an IBU calculator for your additions. They are not 100% accurate but they are a good gauge and decent ones do calculate IBUs obtained with late additions.

But I do agree with others about the length of the boil. For me, the things I think about with boil times are hop utilization, break formation and DMS.
 
Don't have to start PMS'ing over DMS with extract,really. lolz After doing hop additions a few different ways,I've found with a typical partial boil that adding half of the DME I use to do hop additions works very well indeed. Adding the remaining half of the DME,& all of the LME at flame out works better color-wise,as well as quality of flavor all around.
 
Don't have to start PMS'ing over DMS with extract,really. lolz After doing hop additions a few different ways,I've found with a typical partial boil that adding half of the DME I use to do hop additions works very well indeed. Adding the remaining half of the DME,& all of the LME at flame out works better color-wise,as well as quality of flavor all around.

When did the OP say this was an extract recipe?
 
Two things:

First off, you definitely CAN bitter with "late Hopps". It's just that the pricetag to do so is ridiculous. This is because only the most soluble parts of the acid complexes will "break free" in such a short time - your really infusing, more than decocting, the hopp. There is an equation for IBU obtained by late hopp bittering but I don't know it off the top of my head (at work, now). You need massive amounts of hopps to obtain big IBUs, in most (not all) cases.

Second, I've never heard that grain wort can't be boiled more than 20min. I don't challenge the assertion, but can you inform me of the source so I can study it more? In almost all cases, I boil wort for 30 - 120min, be it all grain or grain/extract. I like my results, but I'm certainly not a braumeister.
 
Second, I've never heard that grain wort can't be boiled more than 20min. I don't challenge the assertion, but can you inform me of the source so I can study it more? In almost all cases, I boil wort for 30 - 120min, be it all grain or grain/extract. I like my results, but I'm certainly not a braumeister.

Not sure if I understand what you are asking here.

But, in general, there is less break formation with extract than with all grain so the length of the boil with extract is less important.

And the timing of break formation is highly dependent on the specific process including the strength of the boil. So, in general you will get very good break by one hour. But I have no idea how much earlier this would happen during a boil with the OPs set-up. I know that on my set-up I really only get good break formation at about 45 minutes because power of my boil is very low.

I like my beer clear so for me that means a 60-90 minute boil depending on the recipe.
 
Good article on late hopping here

I'm experimenting with it personally currently.

You need to read this article.

I have made that exact recipe from the link (Jamil's Evil Twin) and it is incredible.

I am sorry to be disagreeable, but the old concept of Bittering/Flavor/Aroma is just completely dated. Naturally, you get more bittering from early additions, and more aroma from late additions, but there is a ton of crossover - and the slope is not linear.

More so, using a bittering formula for late additions is a useless exercise. Those formulas barely have any use to calculate bittering for a normal hop schedule, let alone late or post boil additions from hop backs and whirlpools.

I think the OP will get exactly what he is looking for by "hop bursting" a 15/20 minute boil. The only concern with a short boil (from extract) is sanitation, but 15 minutes should be more than enough to kill off any troubling organisms.

I think the JET recipe calculates to something like 16 IBU's, but upon tasting, it's hop character is similar to beers that are calculated to around 40 IBU's. Try it yourself, and I bet you will agree.

Joe
 
When did the OP say this was an extract recipe?

The op talked about late additions,someone else mentioned extract,so I put the 2 together to show my own experiences that could apply to both. In the right context,of course. I got a "mini" hot break as soon as my boiled water/DME addition came back to the boil for no more than the typical 3 minutes or so. No where near what my wife got after bring the wort from steeping grain up to a boil. That was nuts,like Vesuvius or something. Took some serious stirring to keep it down.
And it's not that steeped grain wort can't be boiled longer than 20 minutes,that's just what the recipe called for,& it was her/our 1st time using any kind of grains. You learn quick. I wonder now if 30 minutes would've been any better at 160F?
 
Hops boiled for less that 20 mins will only lend flavor and aroma. Not sure what you'd get from a fifteen minute boil, but my guess is you won't get hop utilization. Is there a reason you don't want to boil for an hour?

Not so sure about this...

The ulilization is just much lower. Try plugging some numbers into beersmith. Even 5min. additions yield bitterness.
 
You know what? That's fairly true. I've noticed that when using flavor/aroma hops,starting at 20 minutes,that some small amount of bittering is had. But since they're low AA% hops,I don't get too much,which is fine with me. I use pre-hopped cans as a base for other additions to change the original anyway.
A little quicker,easier,granted. But since the bittering is already there (no aroma/flavor additions in it),I'm just compensating for an extra 3lbs of malt extract. Besides,adding to/changing the flavor. It's worked out great so far. Def better beer than just the can with brewing sugar or the like.
 
More so, using a bittering formula for late additions is a useless exercise. Those formulas barely have any use to calculate bittering for a normal hop schedule, let alone late or post boil additions from hop backs and whirlpools. Joe

I disagree that they are useless. They are estimates. That is true. And no, they are not linear. The better formulas are best fit curves and not even close to a straight line. And I have found Tinseth to be very accurate - based on my personal taste of my beers compared with my taste of commerical beers that provide IBUs.

But I do agree that they do not provide for estimates of post boil additions, hop backs or whirlpools. The formulas would state that these provide only aroma and maybe some flavor.

However, if you put the OP's hop schedule into a calculator (which I just did), Tinseth estimates IBUs at over 100.
 
The best ipa I ever made had nothing but late hop additions. Searchthe recipe database for "my 2-time gold winning ipa." you can use a bitterness calculator to determine the amount of hops required to reach your desired ibus. With enough late hops you can reach any bitterness level, and because it's only late hops you get a crap load more of the oils remaining that lend to the flavor and aroma.
 
I'm now trying to make up my mind how many ounces of hops to use when I change the hop schedule of my Sunset Gold ale to turn it into an IPA. It has the right sort of malt profile for it,much like DFH IPA's. The 90min anyway.
I have an ounce of whole leaf Cascade in the freezer. I was thinking of adding Amarillo,Sorachie Ace,maybe Columbus or Citra to that. Not sure if 3 ounces to a 23L (6G) batch,or maybe 4-6 ounces?...It'd be my first IPA,& my Sunset Gold would lend itself well for this. Just the right flavor & color.
 
I disagree that they are useless. And I have found Tinseth to be very accurate - based on my personal taste of my beers compared with my taste of commerical beers that provide IBUs. However, if you put the OP's hop schedule into a calculator (which I just did), Tinseth estimates IBUs at over 100.

Useless is a strong word - I agree. Let me rephrase. They provide a completely inaccurate calculation as compared to measured IBU's, but yes, the inaccuracy is consistently inaccurate. I simply mean that you need to take the calculation itself with a grain of salt. Learn what "40 IBU's" tastes like, and go from there.

I am sorry, but I have to laugh a bit about the contridiction in the above statements. How is Tinseth at all accurate? Do you really think the OP will have 100 IBU's in his recipe?

Do me a favor -

First, please plug the Pliny Clone into Tinseth and tell me how it calculates out.

http://beerdujour.com/Recipes/1Pliny the Elder clone PDF.pdf

Next, take that number, and compare it to the 60 something IBU's Pliny was measured to in a lab (listen to Jamil's IIPA style show if you need to hear that measurement yourself).

Finally, ask yourself again how accurate Tinseth is.

Please run those numbers and let me know how they come out. I'd do it myself, but the software is at home.

Joe
 
Useless is a strong word - I agree. Let me rephrase. They provide a completely inaccurate calculation as compared to measured IBU's, but yes, the inaccuracy is consistently inaccurate. I simply mean that you need to take the calculation itself with a grain of salt. Learn what "40 IBU's" tastes like, and go from there.

I am sorry, but I have to laugh a bit about the contridiction in the above statements. How is Tinseth at all accurate? Do you really think the OP will have 100 IBU's in his recipe?

Do me a favor -

First, please plug the Pliny Clone into Tinseth and tell me how it calculates out.

http://beerdujour.com/Recipes/1Pliny the Elder clone PDF.pdf

Next, take that number, and compare it to the 60 something IBU's Pliny was measured to in a lab (listen to Jamil's IIPA style show if you need to hear that measurement yourself).

Finally, ask yourself again how accurate Tinseth is.

Please run those numbers and let me know how they come out. I'd do it myself, but the software is at home.

Joe

Tinseth is easy and consistent. Yes, I suppose accurate may be an incorrect term.

I have no reason to doubt that a lab came up with 60 IBU for that recipe. And I have never tried Pliny the Elder or this clone. And yes, the estimate is about 130 IBU from Tinseth in a quick calculation, as you predicted.

Assuming that this is an accurate clone recipe, the problem is that if the IBU number is 60, not even Russian River Valley uses an actually calculated number. They claim 100 on their website:

http://www.russianriverbrewing.com/pages/brews/index.html

And I don;t think this is uncommon. So, accurate or not, consumers have grown accustomed to associating a given level of bitterness with higher IBU value than lab numbers would predict.

Bottom line is... who cares? I use the calculator because it helps me formulate recipes to achieve a bitterness level I want. The level I want is based on what I've had previously. So for me (and many, many others) it works. And works well. I really could care less that my taste/number correlation does not jive with a laboratory value.

IMHO the calculations are a great tool.

Maybe you have an IBU calculator in your basement. If you don't, what is the point of bringing this up?
 
Easy kids...

anyone else have an answer to the OPs question? My thoughts, first wort hop is cheaper, but yes, you can get perceived bitterness from hop bursting..
 
IMHO the calculations are a great tool.

Maybe you have an IBU calculator in your basement. If you don't, what is the point of bringing this up?

I think the calculation formulas are a helpful tool for a brewer. They give you a decent indication over multiple batches of what a beer calculated to "40 IBU's" (with a traditional bittering process) in your brewery tastes like, and if you find it too bitter/not bitter enough, you know that a 30 or 50 IBU calculation may be more to your liking. Also, they give us a common language to speak with. For those reasons, they are a nice tool.

My "point" of bringing this up is that the OP was told that his beer would not be bittered correctly because some BS formula said so. I simply wanted to show that the formulas are BS to begin with, and to tell someone his beer does not calculate to an appropriate IBU level is just perpetuating the BS.

Like it or not, IBU's are a finite number, just as OG is a finite number. The difference is that we have tools in hand to correctly determine gravity, but the neccessary tools for measuring bitterness are unheard of in a homebrew set-up. So for anyone to say that someone's recipe won't give them enough bitterness because a formula says so is crazy. It is a formula, not a measurement. More so, a hop bill will shine differently from brewhouse to brewhouse.

The Pliny example was easy because it is such a well known hop bomb, but the actual IBU's are far less than the formula, or even Russian River, claim them to be. I'll give another more personal example. I got a recipe for an APA from a commercial brewer who had his beer measured to 40 IBU's. The recipe calls for .3 oz of Magnum at 60, and .8 oz each of Centennial, Cascade, and Amarillo in the 20 minute flameout whirlpool. Plug that recipe into a formula and it will give you about 20 IBU's, but we know (or at least we were told) it actually measures HIGHER. I brewed it as directed, and it has a very similar bitterness to SNPA, which I understand to also be measured to about 40 IBU's. It certainly has more bitterness than a Blonde ale I've tasted that has also been calculated to an identical 20 IBU's. In that case, even the formula's do not jive.

Unlike Pliny, this example shows a formula undercalculating measured bitterness. Formulas will give you some snap shot, and at times can be fairly accurate, but just as often, they are insanely inaccurate. To rely on them blindly is a big error, because there are a lot of regressions at play that the formulas do not know how to handle. As you admitted, things like a whirlpool and a hopback are complete crap shoots, but they are processes that have tremendous impacts on a recipe. I'm sorry, but any tool that is susceptible to such an inaccuracy is a crappy tool. To keep defending them is silly.

I use the formulas too, but I also have some techniques that circumvent their inaccuracy. Admittedly, in many ways, my techniques have the same flaws as the formulas. For instance, my whirlpool addition is always 20 minutes hot. For whatever reason, I always calculate the whirlpool as a 20 minute boil addition. It may be a coincidence, but if you apply it to the APA recipe I mentioned above, I get ~40 IBU's, just as the commercial beer was measured to be. Obviously it is not a measurement, but it is an adjustment to the formula that I can consistently make, and from there, I can adjust recipes as need be.

Again, my point is that the formula is a nice starting point, but each brewer has to dig a little deeper to learn how the formula they choose to use adapts to their system. That advice is most helpful when you are trying to emulate another person's recipe - the final product is much less of a surprise if you know a little more to the story going into brewday.

Joe
 
For those reasons, they are a nice tool...

...the formulas are BS to begin with...

...any tool that is susceptible to such an inaccuracy is a crappy tool. To keep defending them is silly...

...I use the formulas too...

...Again, my point is that the formula is a nice starting point...

Joe

Interesting to read these points laid out like this.
 
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