Calling all electricians and other saavy electrical engineers HELP!!!!

[Sawdustguy]

LOL- I capped it and I do have a GFCI 110 near the wash basin in the basement so I'll use that one for the pumps and let you know if the issue comes back. On another note, I picked my 1st year cascade hop plant. I got about 8oz wet, which you can see from my picture is a full colander of pretty green cones. Thanks to SWMBO who assisted in picking them

Beautiful Hop cones!

 

[Sawdustguy]

Moving it off the gfci breaker doesn't fix anything, just works around the problem. regardless, like I said before, mine would trip the gfci for no reason. I still blame the pump (this was on a 240v split 2 pole and a 110v gfci wall outlet.)

I agree with you CodeRage. I had this very thing happen to me and I could never make sense of it, but moving the 110V stuff off of one leg of the 220v line worked and the problem never came back. The 220v line was running my BIP filter. As soon as I connected an outdoor light to one of the legs, the GFCI started tripping. I don't understand why to this very day.

 

[sjlammer]

After reading this thread, I contacted the Square D rep (I am using a QO GFI breaker). This is the chain of dialogue:

Me: I am planning to use a 50Amp GFI breaker (QO250GFI) for a project in which the load will be split between 220V and 110V applications. Will the breaker trip if the load on the hot wires is not balanced. For example, 6-3 nm wire runs from the GFI breaker to a distribution block. From the distribution block, two hots and the ground go to power a 220V heat stick. Also, from the distribution block, the hots are separated to create two 110V circuits that share a common neutral and ground. Will this work?

Them: This will work as long as you run the neutral through the breaker. The breaker will not care which wires the current is on as long as it is present and current going to and from the load is equal within 5 mA.

Me: Will the GFI breaker be able to handle of a mix of loads, both resistive (heaters) and inductive (pumps)?

Them: A mix of loads is not a problem. Motors and length of wire will add to the ground fault leakage, but as long as it stays under the threhsold, it will be fine.


Me: Is there a way to predict this? Or is will I have to measure the leakage?

Them: Circuits are generally OK up to 250 ft. long if clean and dry. Underground or damp will increase leakage. Motors will increase leakage because of the magnet wire wound on a steel core. The only way to know what the leakage is would be to measure it as there are so many variables.


According to the manufacturer, splitting off 110V Circuits from 220V protected by a breaker should be fine.... What brand breakers are you guys using?

 

[flananuts]

Mine's a square d QO 30 amp 120/240v 10ka gfi breaker in panel. It was fine until the motors ran for more than an hour and then it was tripping with only two march pumps (1.4a each) and a PID. I'm going to brew this weekend so I'll follow up if the pumps trip the 110 gfi outlet while brewing. At least if it does I can just switch plugs. Believe you me I do not want to have two separate feeds but I want to brew beer even more.

 

[CodeRage]

Believe you me I do not want to have two separate feeds but I want to brew beer even more.

Amen brother!

 

[flananuts]

Quick update

I brewed my first AG on the electric rig. At first my gfi was tripping immediately which was definitely concerning. After the 4th reset it held stable. I did notice occasionally there was some noise coming from the breaker. However throughout my entire HERMS brew period and switching one heater off and another one off which could have caused some voltage differences across the two hot legs, it didn't tirp once. I'm not sure if the march pumps and PID's were in fact causing the problem but I do happen to like having it on a separate circuit.

Brew was successful. I hit my goal of 1.061 at 70% efficiency calculation. I mashed thinner since it was the first time running the system.

Recipe
9 lb two role pale malt
1 lb toasted malt
1 lb crystal 40L
1 lb 4oz Munich Malt

5 gallons strike water at 168 deg
Mash 70 minutes at 155 equated to 152 in middle of grain bed
2.5 gallons first runnings at 1.065
3.5 gallons split into two batch sparge
recirculated for vorlauf and drained
2 oz centenial hop pellets 8.7%AA boil
2 oz cascade leaf 8.7 AA 1 min post boil
OG post boil 1.061-1.064 in fermentor

Initial sweet wort taste was good with a huge cascade hop flavor up front which I hope will dial down during fermentation, cold crash, and aging.

On tap for tomorrow morning, 1st year backyard Cascade hop harvest anniversary ale.

Thanks again for your help.

 

[bakins]

FWIW, my experience is this:

I have a 50A GFCI circuit that I plug my rig into. It is then split (inside the rig) into 2 30A 240V and 1 15A 110V circuit. I wired my rig just like a normal subpanel. I run my pumps, pids, and a RIMS element off the 110V circuit and a 4500w element off of each of the 240V. (All proper gauge wire, etc.) I've never had an issue. I can verify that the GFCI works, as well (cross hot with ground and it trips - controlled experiment, don't try at home, etc.). And for BrewBeemer, yes, I had my copy of the NEC close by


Edit based on rest of thread so that noone else gets confused: on a GFCI, doing a continuity test between hot and ground will trip the GFCI, but will not trip a "normal" breaker/circuit. That's what I was talking about.

 

[wihophead]

I can verify that the GFCI works, as well (cross hot with ground and it trips - controlled experiment, don't try at home, etc.).

JFYI...any breaker would trip by doing this. Creating a ground fault like you did can produce an instantaneous fault current upwards of 9kA. Since a GFCI should trip around 5mA in order to protect life that experiment doesn't tell you much.

 

[CodeRage]

JFYI...any breaker would trip by doing this. Creating a ground fault like you did can produce an instantaneous fault current upwards of 9kA. Since a GFCI should trip around 5mA in order to protect life that experiment doesn't tell you much.

a 20kOhm resistor to ground would be a more appropriate test.

However, if you didn't get a big blue snapping flash and a gigantic pit in the material used to short it, the GFCI grabbed it before the thermal overload could.

 

[wihophead]

a 20kOhm resistor to ground would be a more appropriate test.

However, if you didn't get a big blue snapping flash and a gigantic pit in the material used to short it, the GFCI grabbed it before the thermal overload could.

In this case the magnetic trip would cause the trip not the thermal trip.....typical breakers have both

Edit: Shorting a circuit to find an unlabeled circuit is common place in industry...it usually doesn't cause much if any physical damage unless of coarse you are using GE breakers....LOL

 

[CodeRage]

yeah, still. 9kA makes a bit of a flash and will move metal in an instant. The GFCI is likely to trip first as the jumper begins to make contact. It's not like he is using a large cabinet breaker and slamming the contacts into place to reduce the switching resistance.

OP, great man! glad to hear it all worked out for you. What GFCI kept popping and/or buzzing? the 110 or 220?

 

[flananuts]

the 30amp 120/240 gfi initially tripped a few times and then would buzz occasionally in the beginning but seemed to stop. I didn't get a change to try the 110v through a gfi outlet however I'll attempt that for my brew tomorrow.

 

[wihophead]

yeah, still. 9kA makes a bit of a flash and will move metal in an instant. The GFCI is likely to trip first as the jumper begins to make contact. It's not like he is using a large cabinet breaker and slamming the contacts into place to reduce the switching resistance.

OP, great man! glad to hear it all worked out for you. What GFCI kept popping and/or buzzing? the 110 or 220?

A breaker is designed to instantaneously trip at 5X the rated current and may see upwards of 9kA for a fraction of a cycle, this is why branch circuit beakers are generally rated at 10kA.

The point I was trying to make is that the method he was using to test the circuit is not going to tell you if the circuit is actually functioning properly. It only takes 50mA to cause cardiac arrest...the "best" way would be to use a shunt resistor as you stated earlier. I would hate to see people read this and start testing in this manor and feel they are safe when in fact they very well may not be. There are just way to many different circumstances and assumptions to safely address this subject properly online so I think I will end this with the old adage "be safe out there"...

 

[bakins]

There are just way to many different circumstances and assumptions to safely address this subject properly online so I think I will end this with the old adage "be safe out there"...

+1

I'm not an electrician and you should probably never do anything I do, ever.

FWIW, (remember not an electrician) on my "normal" circuits that go to my main box (where neutral is bound to ground) crossing hot to ground does not trip anything. It will trip a gfci outlet/circuit. I'm crossing hot to ground by using a multimeter in the hot and ground ports of a "normal" outlet. So, is my entire house wired wrong?

 

[passedpawn]

+1

I'm not an electrician and you should probably never do anything I do, ever.

FWIW, (remember not an electrician) on my "normal" circuits that go to my main box (where neutral is bound to ground) crossing hot to ground does not trip anything. It will trip a gfci outlet/circuit. I'm crossing hot to ground by using a multimeter in the hot and ground ports of a "normal" outlet. So, is my entire house wired wrong?

Uh... yeah. That would def be an open ground.

 

[bakins]

Uh... yeah. That would def be an open ground.

So my entire house,which is less than 4 years old, that has passed inspection twice (once at building and once again with an addition - by a paid inspector, not just the county), is not grounded correctly? Just wondering if I need to call an electrician first thing tomorrow.

 

[CodeRage]

So my entire house,which is less than 4 years old, that has passed inspection twice (once at building and once again with an addition - by a paid inspector, not just the county), is not grounded correctly? Just wondering if I need to call an electrician first thing tomorrow.

No
you say you are using a multi meter to short hot to ground? Not a good thing, if you have your meter set to measure current you'll burn up the fuse, if you are measuring resistance you are going to pop your meter....

Before you call out an electrician and get one of those three light socket testers for 5 bucks and test it yourself.

 

[bakins]

No
you say you are using a multi meter to short hot to ground? Not a good thing, if you have your meter set to measure current you'll burn up the fuse, if you are measuring resistance you are going to pop your meter....

Not a multimeter, but a continuity tester (sorry was in a hurry when I typed the other):



Also, I got out one of my books and it says:

"To check for proper grounding, test between the shorter slot (hot) and the round hole (ground). If the tester lights up, there's probably proper grounding. It should also light when you test between the shorter slot and the cover plate screw." (From a supposed good source)

So, that's what I was talking about. (Maybe I'm being slow today and not explaining myself ). If you do that on a GFCI, it will trip.


(I should know better than discussing electricity on this board by now...)

 

[dobeluvr]

You do not have a problem with the house wiring, just with the terminology you are using.
Testing an outlet by sticking the ends of the leads into a receptacle, whether hot to gnd, gnd to nuetral, or hot to nuetral is not shorting it. hot to gnd should be 120v, hot to nuetral should be 120 v. This type of meter will trip a gfci, as it has a solenoid in it.

 

[wihophead]

Now it makes a lot more sense.... BTW in the trades we call that a wiggy

 

[CodeRage]

Not a multimeter, but a continuity tester (sorry was in a hurry when I typed the other):



Also, I got out one of my books and it says:

"To check for proper grounding, test between the shorter slot (hot) and the round hole (ground). If the tester lights up, there's probably proper grounding. It should also light when you test between the shorter slot and the cover plate screw." (From a supposed good source)

So, that's what I was talking about. (Maybe I'm being slow today and not explaining myself ). If you do that on a GFCI, it will trip.


(I should know better than discussing electricity on this board by now...)

Hey no worries man.

If you measure from the 110 source to the ground (round peg) yes it should trip the gfci. It is expecting the current that is being used to light the bulb to be returned on the neutral (long slot) but it isn't. So it pop's. Thats a good thing. if you measure from the 110 to the neutral, the gfci shouldn't pop.

Make sense?

 

[passedpawn]

Sorry. I was misled by "I'm crossing hot to ground". Doing a continuity test from hot to ground wasn't what I read, but it is exactly what you wrote.

Why are you doing that?

 

[bakins]

Make sense?

Yes, I already knew this, but I misspoke with multi-meter. (The very expensive thing we have at work has a continuity mode on it, but we generically call it the "multi-meter.") And the sarcasm about immediately calling an electrician didn't come across. (I'm an a-hole, a likable a-hole, but an a-hole nonetheless.) Was a long week....

So, basic point before this side-track,was that's it's perfectly fine and normal to split a GFCI 240V circuit into 110 circuits...

 

[dobeluvr]

dont know that its caused by current from the bulb, neon aint it? but the solenoid picking up will definitely trip it. I have an older wiggy, no light, that trips the gfci. It is an actual "wiggy" brand. the above picture works the same but is actually vol-con made by a ideal

journeyman inside wireman ibew local 531

 

[bakins]

Sorry. I was misled by "I'm crossing hot to ground". Doing a continuity test from hot to ground wasn't what I read, but it is exactly what you wrote.

Why are you doing that?

On a non-GFCI circuit, "doing a continuity test from hot to ground " will not trip anything. On a GFCI, it will, because the current did not return via the neutral. It's a quick way to test if a GFCI is wired correctly. I was beginning to wonder if the electrician who showed me the trick was playing a very bad joke on me ("that crazy somb*tch gonna burn his house down, yuck, yuck").

 

[CodeRage]

On a non-GFCI circuit, "doing a continuity test from hot to ground " will not trip anything. On a GFCI, it will, because the current did not return via the neutral. It's a quick way to test if a GFCI is wired correctly. I was beginning to wonder if the electrician who showed me the trick was playing a very bad joke on me ("that crazy somb*tch gonna burn his house down, yuck, yuck").

It's been a real long week for me too brother. You sound okay to me electrically and personality wise.