Anyone know what it would take to build a burner for a 7 bbl system? Something using propane or electricity. I was thinking about finding the largest banjo burner and building a funnel to focus the heat but would like suggestions.
Burner for a 7 bbl system
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Synovia
Well-Known Member
7 bbl is roughly 220 gallons.
220 gallons @ 8.35 lbs per gallon is approximately 1900 lbs.
1 BTU * 1900lbs * (220-70 degree) = 285,000 BTU for 1 hour. Assuming perfect heat conduction from the heat source, and perfect insulation of heat.
The problem is, assuming 100% efficiency gets you 55K btu bringing 8g to a boil in 8 minutes (from 70), and we all know thats not even close to reasonable.
If I had to guess, I'd be looking in the 600K BTU range.
220 gallons @ 8.35 lbs per gallon is approximately 1900 lbs.
1 BTU * 1900lbs * (220-70 degree) = 285,000 BTU for 1 hour. Assuming perfect heat conduction from the heat source, and perfect insulation of heat.
The problem is, assuming 100% efficiency gets you 55K btu bringing 8g to a boil in 8 minutes (from 70), and we all know thats not even close to reasonable.
If I had to guess, I'd be looking in the 600K BTU range.
OP
OP
Thanks, that at least gives me a ballpark figure to work with.
So basically I need to build a forge under this brew tank? Use the same soap stone or something to keep the heat high? Or like a kiln. And then a glucol cooling system to cool this monster down? This may get interesting.
So basically I need to build a forge under this brew tank? Use the same soap stone or something to keep the heat high? Or like a kiln. And then a glucol cooling system to cool this monster down? This may get interesting.
Synovia
Well-Known Member
Thanks, that at least gives me a ballpark figure to work with.
So basically I need to build a forge under this brew tank? Use the same soap stone or something to keep the heat high? Or like a kiln. And then a glucol cooling system to cool this monster down? This may get interesting.
7bbl seems to be a pretty common size for small brew pubs. (Atleast the ones near me). Why don't you give a couple near you a call and see what they use.
OP
OP
If there were any.
I found a company near by that makes burners for kilns, among other types, and they have one that's rated at around 805k btu's at 10 psi propane for around $400. Now that I have an idea of what I'm looking for I'll keep my eyes open for deals. Thanks for the input. 
TwoHeadsBrewing
Well-Known Member
Wouldn't it be more efficient to use steam for a system of that size? I don't know much about boilers, but an electric boiler would seem like the way to go.
Trying to use a gas fired BK for 7 bbls is simply missing the point.
After about 3 bbls you should be using a boiler and steam in jacketed HLT's, MLT's and BK's. It is far more efficient and effective to use steam in a jacketed vessel than to try to heat from the bottom with gas at this volume level. It is wasteful and inefficient, and the gas can be better utilized in heating the steam.
That's why breweries do it that way.
After about 3 bbls you should be using a boiler and steam in jacketed HLT's, MLT's and BK's. It is far more efficient and effective to use steam in a jacketed vessel than to try to heat from the bottom with gas at this volume level. It is wasteful and inefficient, and the gas can be better utilized in heating the steam.
That's why breweries do it that way.
OP
OP
Not sure which would be more cost effective, a single burner with focused flame or multiple burners with a more diffuse flame. Interesting.
My concern would then be cost of the unit compared to propane and cost of running said unit compared to propane. Not sure. Need to explore the interwebbies more on this.
Boerderij_Kabouter
Well-Known Member
I have to agree that steam is really the way to go. You are going to be running at incredible inefficiency if you direct fire.
That said it could be done but it seems a bit dilly.
That said it could be done but it seems a bit dilly.
OP
OP
Trying to use a gas fired BK for 7 bbls is simply missing the point.
After about 3 bbls you should be using a boiler and steam in jacketed HLT's, MLT's and BK's. It is far more efficient and effective to use steam in a jacketed vessel than to try to heat from the bottom with gas at this volume level. It is wasteful and inefficient, and the gas can be better utilized in heating the steam.
That's why breweries do it that way.
The unit is from, what became, Russian River Brewery and it's free. The 7 bbl conical is originally from Sierra Nevada Brewery and it's also free. Given that I won't be using it for awhile, I have plenty of time to research my options. I suppose I should read up on the steam method and see how it works. Sounds like the way to go.
Bokonon
Well-Known Member
How about one of the big burners from here: Jet Burners
They have the small 10 jet burner up to a 88 jet burner (claims 880k BTUs)
They have the small 10 jet burner up to a 88 jet burner (claims 880k BTUs)
OP
OP
OP
OP
Sounds good, thanks.
OP
OP
JVD_X
Well-Known Member
Not that I am even close to considering going pro... but I have never seen or talked to anyone about how a pro steam jacket works. Is there a reference drawing somewhere - maybe an article?
OP
OP
There must be somewhere, I just don't know where yet. The opportunity to go pro presented itself and it was hard to say no. Wasn't quite prepared so I'm learning on the fly.
Take a look at the pipe style burners from these folks Cast Iron Burners. You would need to individualy pilot light them or keep spacing close enough to light each other, and fire them in banks for flame level control.
probrewer.com anyone?
Flying Fish • Fish Tales also an interesting read
Brewpastor did a write-up on when he was pro. Not that he goes into burners and tanks, but it's still a good read.
Flying Fish • Fish Tales also an interesting read
Brewpastor did a write-up on when he was pro. Not that he goes into burners and tanks, but it's still a good read.
OP
OP
Good read, thank you. I did check probrewer.com. When it comes time to deal with this I'll check it again.
nickpgoodman
Well-Known Member
FYI you can get the multi-tip jet burners MUCH cheaper than the link above.
Either here
Jet Burner: Restaurant Equipment and Supplies - Restaurant equipment, Restaurant Supplies, Foodservice Supplies
or
CHINESE WOK RANGES - RANGES - EQUIPMENT
The 2nd link does carry propane, you just have to ask them.
Either here
Jet Burner: Restaurant Equipment and Supplies - Restaurant equipment, Restaurant Supplies, Foodservice Supplies
or
CHINESE WOK RANGES - RANGES - EQUIPMENT
The 2nd link does carry propane, you just have to ask them.
bendavanza
Well-Known Member
If I was going to need that much heat, there is no way I'd go with propane burners. Electricity used for steam would be the way to go.
Synovia
Well-Known Member
Unless I'm doing my math wrong, doesn't that come out to something absurd like an 80K watt load to get to a boil in an hour??
well it'll probably be heating from more around 150 not 70, and it almost has to be 3 phase.
BarleyRocket
Member
Close. About 60kW would do, which equates to approximately 6 boiler hp on an average unit. Boiler hp != mechanical hp.
Such a unit should boil in less than an hour, no idea how much less - depends on piping, insulation, etc.
To run such a device would require a properly sized transformer - most of your houses are likely fed from a 50kVA unit or smaller, unless you live very close to your neighbors. Such a transformer would blow if you tried to run this boiler.
Calling your utility will be a small step in getting a brewery this size running.
You can also get equivalent sized boilers running on natural gas or propane.
I'd advise a boiler/steam setup for this size as well, not that direct fire couldn't be done, but it'd be far less efficient.
BarleyRocket
Member
Not necessarily 3 phase - it could be done with single phase as this is not a rotating machine, just a resistive load. For a 6 hp boiler as stated above you're going to need 125 amp single phase service at 480 volts(for the boiler alone). Not your average residential transformer. Depends on the boiler you buy. Most installations of this size are going to be three phase, so you'd probably just want to spec a boiler for what you have available.
480 single phase? Pretty sure that's a 3 phase voltage. Single phase he'd be 240 and over 200 amps.
BarleyRocket
Member
Not necesarily.
Howard Industries Utility Products Division
Middle of the page - 240/480V low voltage winding on a single phase unit.
Depends on the utility, what they buy, etc.
Generally, you're correct. But if a guy was at the end of a 10 mile single phase lateral, there are options. You could also run a pretty significant phase converter to run a 3 phase boiler, but that'd be about like putting a school bus on a flat bed to carry kids around...
A bit off topic, but suffice to say there are many options when it comes to energy input.
OP
OP
I do believe I have a 50 amp 220v at my Well pump which will be next to the brewhouse and where I'll get my water and power.
JKoravos
Well-Known Member
Is your property commercially zoned?
If you're really considering going pro you should get in contact with a design pro who can do the system design.
Either way the utility company is not going to let him have 3 phase service and their not going to transform to 480 for him either.
So since he's stuck on 240, he's going to need like a 400 amp service for his house and brewing equipment, which is also going to cost quite a bit to put in.
I guess what it comes down to is either go propane and spend a fortune on propane at home or go pro with a commercially zoned building.
OP
OP
I appreciate all the input, thanks.
I'm out in the country so zoning is not an issue. Power though seems to be an issue. I can get a propane burner that's over 800k btu's at 10 psi. I have 2 propane tanks, one is a 250 gal and the other is 150. I don't use much propane in the house (hot water only so far).
Like I mentioned before, I won't be needing the 7 bbl system up and running for quite awhile, until then it will just be small batches til the need arises, this gives me time to rig the best system I can with what I've got available and not spend any more than I have to.
One step at a time. Start small, lose small.
nickpgoodman
Well-Known Member
There are plenty of gas fired brewhouses out there. NABS has one for sale right now.
Here's the system.
7 BBL CDC Gas Fired Brewhouse - NABS
Now, there is a pic of the burner on there from Economite. By using a blower system you get much more efficient combustion.
Midco International Inc. | Economite Series
Here's the system.
7 BBL CDC Gas Fired Brewhouse - NABS
Now, there is a pic of the burner on there from Economite. By using a blower system you get much more efficient combustion.
Midco International Inc. | Economite Series
OP
OP
Kind of like a kiln, Forge, or a blast furnace?
certaut
Well-Known Member
burners,, look here http://www.zoellerforge.com/flare.html
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