Bru N Water consistently 0.20 ph too high

[Wreck99]

Hey folks, looking for some advice to narrow the gap I'm getting when using Bru N Water with regards to pH. Yesterday is the latest example of a brew I did where Bru N Water predicted 5.5 and I got 5.3. At least it's predictable as far as reaching my target but it sure would be nice to see it closer.

I also used EZ Water Calculator just to see if it was much different and it wasn't. So I'm wondering what I should be doing differently to get this prediction a little closer. Any ideas?

 

[SEndorf]

Hey folks, looking for some advice to narrow the gap I'm getting when using Bru N Water with regards to pH. Yesterday is the latest example of a brew I did where Bru N Water predicted 5.5 and I got 5.3. At least it's predictable as far as reaching my target but it sure would be nice to see it closer.

Why the need to get it closer?
It's just a tool in your tool box. If it's consistent, it's working.
Simply plan for the 0.20 difference.

 

[Wreck99]

Why the need to get it closer?
It's just a tool in your tool box. If it's consistent, it's working.
Simply plan for the 0.20 difference.

You're right. I can plan for this. However, I can't help but think I'm entering something wrong. If it's an easy fix to narrow the gap, I'd like to do it.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Check your mash pH at the very end of the mash. You may find better agreement with prediction.

 

[Wreck99]

Check your mash pH at the very end of the mash. You may find better agreement with prediction.

The past 2 brews on my new system, I've had to course correct a couple times anyway to raise the pH...by slowly adding pickling lime. I like using pickling lime because it adds calcium along the way which I'm normally low on. That said, yesterday's brew I checked the mash pH with 20 minutes left in the mash and it was still 0.20 off from Bru N Water.

 

[balrog]

I use several
None match what I measure
Until I make test mashes and know what the diph of the malts are, none will
I also still question my measurement abilities really
What @SEndorf said tho, keep track and adjust
By adjust of course I mean on the next time you brew. If you're ph adjusting to help mash conversion, it's too late 30-40m in to do anything as the conversion is pretty much done.

 

[Wreck99]

I use several
None match what I measure
Until I make test mashes and know what the diph of the malts are, none will
I also still question my measurement abilities really
What @SEndorf said tho, keep track and adjust
By adjust of course I mean on the next time you brew. If you're ph adjusting to help mash conversion, it's too late 30-40m in to do anything as the conversion is pretty much done.

That's why I'd love to hit my pH on the 1st go, or 2nd with a minor adjustment 10 minutes in. Well, until I can figure this out, I'll just get Bru N Water to predict a 5.4 mash pH when I want to get 5.2, and so on. I was hoping to dial in the tool better was all.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

How software responds to a certain set of general input criteria should never be presumed to be how it will behave for a differing set of input criteria. Such presumptive reasoning stems merely from faith, and is thereby the antithesis of reason.

 

[bob1852]

How are you measuring pH?

What temperature is the sample you're measuring?

 

[Wreck99]

How are you measuring pH?

What temperature is the sample you're measuring?

Measuring with my Hach PocketPro+ PH Meter at about 72F sample temp.

 

[Vale71]

Are using as input values actual malt analysis values for your current lot and water analysis performed on the day you've drawn your brewing liquor. If not then you are using either average values (for malt) and values from an analysis that might have been performed some time ago (for water) and might differ quite a lot from what you actually have in your mash tun.
In that case making an accurate prediction at the level of precision you're expecting is really just a matter of coincidence or, if you prefer, sheer luck.

 

[Wreck99]

Are using as input values actual malt analysis values for your current lot and water analysis performed on the day you've drawn your brewing liquor. If not then you are using either average values (for malt) and values from an analysis that might have been performed some time ago (for water) and might differ quite a lot from what you actually have in your mash tun.
In that case making an accurate prediction at the level of precision you're expecting is really just a matter of coincidence or, if you prefer, sheer luck.

I have tested my water a couple of times since moving here, in different seasons. I've also tested it via Ward Labs. All of those come out about the same. My last Ward Labs test I did earlier this year actually dropped my numbers...as if they could drop much more lol.

As for the grains, yeah I'm just putting the average numbers that's on the packaging from when I buy it. I have no way to get an accurate number there I don't think.

 

[Wreck99]

Here's my recent water test from Ward Labs in April.

 

[Vale71]

I'm envious. I need RO gear to get those values...
Then the only element of uncertainty is definitely the malt values. Unfortunately it's hard for hobbysts to obtain actual analysis sheets for their malt as it is often repackaged and maltsters won't respond to queries from small customers, so we are stuck with a certain degree of uncertainty (pun not intended).
And then there's the measurement error. You do calibrate your PH meter properly before every session right?

 

[Wreck99]

I'm envious. I need RO gear to get those values...
Then the only element of uncertainty is definitely the malt values. Unfortunately it's hard for hobbysts to obtain actual analysis sheets for their malt as it is often repackaged and maltsters won't respond to queries from small customers, so we are stuck with a certain degree of uncertainty (pun not intended).
And then there's the measurement error. You do calibrate your PH meter properly before every session right?

Every time, never miss a beat.

 

[Vale71]

Attaboy.

 

[Vale71]

Do you have acidulated malt in every recipe? Acid content is also a variable and if you're just using average values those might not match your actual malt values and that would definitely have a significant impact on PH. After all, it's what acidulated malt is there for.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Don't fall into a trap of somehow believing that software is (or should be) more precise than actual measurement. Many seem to believe that way, and there is no logical reason for which to do so. The software is merely making a stream of purportedly educated guesses. Mine included.

 

[Wreck99]

Do you have acidulated malt in every recipe? Acid content is also a variable and if you're just using average values those might not match your actual malt values and that would definitely have a significant impact on PH. After all, it's what acidulated malt is there for.

Yeah all my lighter stuff gets 3-4oz as per the spreadsheet...but I think I'm going to start dialing this back some.

 

[Wreck99]

Don't fall into a trap of somehow believing that software is (or should be) more precise than actual measurement. Many seem to believe that way, and there is no logical reason for which to do so. The software is merely making a stream of purportedly educated guesses. Mine included.

It's true and easy to get sucked in. I'll see if I can translate my acidulated malt difference and go from there. Maybe this will make up the difference I keep seeing. Say, 1/2 the amount of acid malt predicted for that predicted ph...and if it's consistantly close to point then that's what I'll have to do.

 

[couchsending]

Funny I was generally .2-.25 higher than predicted forever...

Got some new CaCl and have been adding a bit more Ca to my mash and lately I’ve been about .15-.1 under...

 

[balrog]

Funny I was generally .2-.25 higher than predicted forever...

Got some new CaCl and have been adding a bit more Ca to my mash and lately I’ve been about .15-.1 under...

Hmmm. Interesting. I’ve been using the same double bagged prills “a while”. I certainly have read about the hygroscopic nature but I wonder...

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Hmmm. Interesting. I’ve been using the same double bagged prills “a while”. I certainly have read about the hygroscopic nature but I wonder...

I left some prills sit out in the open for a summer and it turned into liquid goo.

If you have access to an "Analytical Balance", place some on the tray, weigh it, and then sit back and watch the weight go up as time goes by. The extra weight is the water from the humidity in the air that it is complexing with.

 

[Wreck99]

Funny I was generally .2-.25 higher than predicted forever...

Got some new CaCl and have been adding a bit more Ca to my mash and lately I’ve been about .15-.1 under...

That's where I wanna get. I'm good with .1 or so high or low. As long as I get consistent results from the tools with adjustments needed, then I call it a win.