dignifiedb
Active Member
Seriously, thank you so much for the quick replies. I really do appreciate it, and I can't wait to try it! So, after 10-12 days fermenting, do you go straight to keg?
Briny Melon Gose HUGE Success
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dignifiedb
Active Member
Okay, I got all the grains and yeast to make this. But, I just have some questions about the yeast pitching. The guy at the homebrew shop suggested I brew it like a "normal" beer, after boiling cool the wort to 80 degrees, put it in a caboy, then pitch the lacto starter.
I'd rather follow your method, as it seems to have worked really well for you and the other people who have tried it, but I just want to make sure I'm following it correctly.
With regard to the yeast portion:
1) Create a traditional starter on a stir plate like I normally would using 1056 or something "basic."
2) After a day or two, turn off the stir plate, pitch the lacto into the starter, put an airlock on it and let sour for 48 hours in a warm area.
3) After 48 hours, pitch the lacto into the wort when it's been cooled to 90 degrees and add the 5ml of lactic acid.
4) Cover the kettle and let sit overnight.
5) The next morning boil the "soured" wort.
...Here's where I have some questions (and, hopefully, I've understood everything correctly so far)....Won't boiling the wort kill the yeast starter/lacto starter? Also, after boiling for 60 minutes, do I then cool the wort to 70-ish degrees and pitch "normal" yeast (you suggested WLP029 or WLP001). If I don't need to pitch the 029 or 001, then how does the beer ferment?
Sorry to have so many questions. I'm really excited to brew this beer, and I just want to make sure I'm doing things correctly, as I've never done a kettle sour or used any form of lacto.
I'd rather follow your method, as it seems to have worked really well for you and the other people who have tried it, but I just want to make sure I'm following it correctly.
With regard to the yeast portion:
1) Create a traditional starter on a stir plate like I normally would using 1056 or something "basic."
2) After a day or two, turn off the stir plate, pitch the lacto into the starter, put an airlock on it and let sour for 48 hours in a warm area.
3) After 48 hours, pitch the lacto into the wort when it's been cooled to 90 degrees and add the 5ml of lactic acid.
4) Cover the kettle and let sit overnight.
5) The next morning boil the "soured" wort.
...Here's where I have some questions (and, hopefully, I've understood everything correctly so far)....Won't boiling the wort kill the yeast starter/lacto starter? Also, after boiling for 60 minutes, do I then cool the wort to 70-ish degrees and pitch "normal" yeast (you suggested WLP029 or WLP001). If I don't need to pitch the 029 or 001, then how does the beer ferment?
Sorry to have so many questions. I'm really excited to brew this beer, and I just want to make sure I'm doing things correctly, as I've never done a kettle sour or used any form of lacto.
Uts
Member
i'm not an expert, but if you're planning on kettle souring, it sounds like the info you got is backwards. pitch the lacto at 80 or so degrees, and let it go a couple of days, or until you get the pH you want. then you can boil it, and treat it like any other beer you'd boil.
pitching the lacto first & then boiling keeps your cold side equipment bug free.
hope this helps.
pitching the lacto first & then boiling keeps your cold side equipment bug free.
hope this helps.
Your adding the Watermelon concentration in the keg correct? Do you allow time for this to ferment out? I'm assuming there are fermentable sugars in the juice. Do you factor this in when carbing? Thanks for sharing, looks like a great recipe!
You have quite a few issues here with your process. I won't spend the time to correct them all when everything you need to answer these questions is on the first page of this thread.
dignifiedb
Active Member
Hmmm...that's what I based it off of. I just have misread or misinterpreted something. Here's what I went by from the first page:
"arnobg here is a recap for a 5.5G batch. If you want details I'll offer more.
I made a lacto sour starter with Omega OYL-605 and 1 liter standard starter...what ever starter you typically make. No stir plate, pitch lacto pak in starter and let sour in a warm area (oven with light on, maybe outside shed summer for example) for 48 hours. 72F-90F is fine. Stopper or airlock in flask.
Mash 50/50 light (red is ok but nothing dark) wheat malt and 2 row. I did 150F single infusion 60 min. Cool to 90F pitch lacto starter. I hit the wort with 5 mL lactic to bring ph down to 4.5 to discourage unwanted bacteria from invading the wort. This entire souring process took less than 24 hours in my outdoor brew cave right in my boil kettle with the lid on. Again, 72F-90F is fine for this particular strain of lacto.
Next morn my ph was 3.20 and I began the boil. Added 1/2 oz of Saaz or Hallertau for less than 10 IBU. 60 min boil, hop full boil, add 1 ounce sea salt and one ounce lightly cracked (not crushed) coriander in hop bag at 10 min to go. I used WLP029 but WLP001 or anything similar will work. I do recommend a healthy pitch from a starter, but I did a double step for insurance against the salinity and ph obstacles. I don't think it is necessary to double, but at least a single starter is best.
Normal ferment in the mid to upper 60F's for 10-12 days. The "magic" is the watermelon addition. I froze 1/2G fresh melon juice in a milk jug. Turn jug upside down over a quart mason jar and let it melt. The concentrate drains first. collect 32 oz. Freeze that 32 oz and do the melt/drip trick again and collect 16 oz essence. This is your pitch when you rack to keg for conditioning."
Is it basically the original starter I have wrong? Any help would be appreciated.
"arnobg here is a recap for a 5.5G batch. If you want details I'll offer more.
I made a lacto sour starter with Omega OYL-605 and 1 liter standard starter...what ever starter you typically make. No stir plate, pitch lacto pak in starter and let sour in a warm area (oven with light on, maybe outside shed summer for example) for 48 hours. 72F-90F is fine. Stopper or airlock in flask.
Mash 50/50 light (red is ok but nothing dark) wheat malt and 2 row. I did 150F single infusion 60 min. Cool to 90F pitch lacto starter. I hit the wort with 5 mL lactic to bring ph down to 4.5 to discourage unwanted bacteria from invading the wort. This entire souring process took less than 24 hours in my outdoor brew cave right in my boil kettle with the lid on. Again, 72F-90F is fine for this particular strain of lacto.
Next morn my ph was 3.20 and I began the boil. Added 1/2 oz of Saaz or Hallertau for less than 10 IBU. 60 min boil, hop full boil, add 1 ounce sea salt and one ounce lightly cracked (not crushed) coriander in hop bag at 10 min to go. I used WLP029 but WLP001 or anything similar will work. I do recommend a healthy pitch from a starter, but I did a double step for insurance against the salinity and ph obstacles. I don't think it is necessary to double, but at least a single starter is best.
Normal ferment in the mid to upper 60F's for 10-12 days. The "magic" is the watermelon addition. I froze 1/2G fresh melon juice in a milk jug. Turn jug upside down over a quart mason jar and let it melt. The concentrate drains first. collect 32 oz. Freeze that 32 oz and do the melt/drip trick again and collect 16 oz essence. This is your pitch when you rack to keg for conditioning."
Is it basically the original starter I have wrong? Any help would be appreciated.
You're misreading the yeast portions. I'll give you the basics and the rest of the research will be up to you. How good this beer comes out will be up to your research for your specific variables. This was the first "sour" I had ever done and it came out amazing because I did my research, use google to your advantage. Since then I have made many Gose's which have all been great.
Process rundown:
Make a lactobacillus starter. You can do this up to a week in advance or as little as a few days in advance. If you're using a smack pack of something like Wyeast 5335 make a 1.0 Liter starter with around 70-80 grams of DME and cool it to 80-90 F, then pitch the lacto in your starter. Let it sit a few days and monitor the pH until it gets to where you want it, 3.2-3.4 ideally. A decent pH meter is important if you want this beer to be good. Making a lacto starter is different than a normal starter, look it up.
When you're a couple days from mash/lacto pitch day you need to have your sach yeast prepared, this is why US-05 is great for this as you don't need two starters going at once. If you have to use liquid yeast, you can make that starter once you've pitched your lactobacillus starter in the following step and free up your flask.
Brew your beer through the mash/mash out portion when your lacto starter is ready. After your mashout bring the wort to a boil to kill any buggies and cool it to 80-100F. Again, this temperature and the previous lacto starter process are dependent on the lacto you are personally using. Do your research you can find numerous threads and this information is on the manufacturer's website. After cooling the wort use lactic acid to drop the wort to 4.5 pH. This will allow the lacto to get a head start and keep any other buggies at bay so your lacto can get to work and provide clean souring. Again, there's more to this process involving trying to keep as much O2 out of the kettle as possible, but do your research. Everything I needed wasn't found in this thread.
Pitch your lacto starter into the wort and let it sour to desired range, again 3.2-3.4 ideally. Keep it in your lacto's temperature range. When the pH is where you want it have your sach yeast starter ready if you aren't using dry yeast and bring the wort to a boil to brew as normal. shoot for 5-8 IBU's from a bittering addition only o a noble hop. The rest is normal brewing..
troglodytes
Well-Known Member
I did mine a little different than arnobg (I mash sour as I don't like to use my aluminum kettle for souring) but generally our practice is the same.
1) You want to make a sour starter. You want a healthy pitch of lacto and you want the right conditions to ensure no bad guys grow in addition to the lacto strain you actually want to sour with. OP used Omega, I simply make a starter by boiling starter strength wort, pitching in a bunch of raw unmilled grain, topping of with a little seltzer to get O2 out, cover and keep warm (90F is good). Do not treat this like a normal starter with a stir plate, oxygen is your enemy keep it out. It doesn't hurt to add a little lactic acid to get the pH down right away. this will further keep the bad guys from taking hold.
2) After a couple days (you'll know when as the starter will be sour as hell). Mine smelled like a bowl of cambells tomato soup. mm mm good. Make the main mash for your beer. For a gose 50/50 2-row to wheat is correct. Keep in mind wheat is sticky, I have sparge problems sometimes and lose efficiency which I make up for with DME in the boil if necessary.
3) After mash is complete cool it down to 90F (for whatever I propagated, 100F worked just fine, just don't go over 120F). I mash in a bag so I just removed the grain and left the wort in my mash tun and pitched my lacto starter. You can be like OP and transfer the wort to the boil kettle and pitch the lacto starter in there if you'd like, it saves you a step on boil day.
4) Now you have a bunch of lacto in raw wort. There's a lot of cells here so it should be safe and pretty fast. As I don't have a pH meter and I love things real sour I let my goses go for 3 days. OP only needed one. You job here is to keep it warm and keep oxygen out, and again lowering the pH right away with 5 mL of lactic will do wonders for keeping the bad guys out
5) NOTE: If at any time things start to smell like vomit or feces to is best to dump and start over. All other weird or off smells should be ok and will disappear post boil and/or fermentation. I promise, I don't serve tomato soup gose to my friends. Its amazing what the boil and yeast scrub out.
6) Once your mash is at your desired level of sour (keep in mind that you should still have full sugar in the wort, so it won't have the same perceived tartness now as it will post fermentation) its time to boil it to kill all that lacto you don't want getting into all of your cold side brewing equipment. Technically all you need is about 15 minutes, OP did 60, nothing wrong with that.
7) Post boil and boil additions you now essentially have a regular (but very acidic) beer so you may proceed with your normal process. Just remember some yeast don't like the super acidic environment so pitch a lot of active yeast or pick one that is known to be good. Lots of people use brett. I always use WY3711 and it is a freaking champ, especially since you want a gose to finish real dry. OP uses WLP029 which sounds like a great combo and I think I'm going to try that one upon his recommendation next time.
8) Post fermentation do the watermelon concentrate addition which sounds freaking amazing!
Hope that clarifies things. It seems like a longer process, but now that I do this for my goses I've realized it really isn't. You get to mash and boil on different days so you have two shorter sessions. And with only needing a 15 minute boil, brew days seems to fly by. This is how I got into sour brewing and I think its the best way to start.
1) You want to make a sour starter. You want a healthy pitch of lacto and you want the right conditions to ensure no bad guys grow in addition to the lacto strain you actually want to sour with. OP used Omega, I simply make a starter by boiling starter strength wort, pitching in a bunch of raw unmilled grain, topping of with a little seltzer to get O2 out, cover and keep warm (90F is good). Do not treat this like a normal starter with a stir plate, oxygen is your enemy keep it out. It doesn't hurt to add a little lactic acid to get the pH down right away. this will further keep the bad guys from taking hold.
2) After a couple days (you'll know when as the starter will be sour as hell). Mine smelled like a bowl of cambells tomato soup. mm mm good. Make the main mash for your beer. For a gose 50/50 2-row to wheat is correct. Keep in mind wheat is sticky, I have sparge problems sometimes and lose efficiency which I make up for with DME in the boil if necessary.
3) After mash is complete cool it down to 90F (for whatever I propagated, 100F worked just fine, just don't go over 120F). I mash in a bag so I just removed the grain and left the wort in my mash tun and pitched my lacto starter. You can be like OP and transfer the wort to the boil kettle and pitch the lacto starter in there if you'd like, it saves you a step on boil day.
4) Now you have a bunch of lacto in raw wort. There's a lot of cells here so it should be safe and pretty fast. As I don't have a pH meter and I love things real sour I let my goses go for 3 days. OP only needed one. You job here is to keep it warm and keep oxygen out, and again lowering the pH right away with 5 mL of lactic will do wonders for keeping the bad guys out
5) NOTE: If at any time things start to smell like vomit or feces to is best to dump and start over. All other weird or off smells should be ok and will disappear post boil and/or fermentation. I promise, I don't serve tomato soup gose to my friends. Its amazing what the boil and yeast scrub out.
6) Once your mash is at your desired level of sour (keep in mind that you should still have full sugar in the wort, so it won't have the same perceived tartness now as it will post fermentation) its time to boil it to kill all that lacto you don't want getting into all of your cold side brewing equipment. Technically all you need is about 15 minutes, OP did 60, nothing wrong with that.
7) Post boil and boil additions you now essentially have a regular (but very acidic) beer so you may proceed with your normal process. Just remember some yeast don't like the super acidic environment so pitch a lot of active yeast or pick one that is known to be good. Lots of people use brett. I always use WY3711 and it is a freaking champ, especially since you want a gose to finish real dry. OP uses WLP029 which sounds like a great combo and I think I'm going to try that one upon his recommendation next time.
8) Post fermentation do the watermelon concentrate addition which sounds freaking amazing!
Hope that clarifies things. It seems like a longer process, but now that I do this for my goses I've realized it really isn't. You get to mash and boil on different days so you have two shorter sessions. And with only needing a 15 minute boil, brew days seems to fly by. This is how I got into sour brewing and I think its the best way to start.
dignifiedb
Active Member
Both arnobg and troglodytes, thank you so much for the help and suggestions. I really do appreciate it! Seriously, thanks for taking the time to help me out with this. I've been brewing for many years, and this is the first "sour" that I've attempted to make.
Turkeyshot
Well-Known Member
What would happen if you didn't use a lacto starter at all and only used lactic acid to drop your ph down to let's say 3.5 instead.
jmgreen7
Well-Known Member
All, I'd like to revive this thread if possible. I'm about to transfer to secondary and have some questions
1) watermelon - did you all blend up watermelon and strain it for the first go around?
2) I'm looking at hibiscus flowers on Amazon . Would this be the right purchase?
Frontier Co-op Organic Hibiscus Flowers, Cut & Sifted, 1 Pound Bulk Bag https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0012BSDNW/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
1) watermelon - did you all blend up watermelon and strain it for the first go around?
2) I'm looking at hibiscus flowers on Amazon . Would this be the right purchase?
Frontier Co-op Organic Hibiscus Flowers, Cut & Sifted, 1 Pound Bulk Bag https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0012BSDNW/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
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