Brewing First Partial Mash, need input on hop schedule

[novaau]

I have ordered Northern Brewer's Carmelite Triple-Grain Tripel Kit. I am wanting to convert this into kind of a Tripel/IIPA hybrid. I plan on adding honey (lb. or two, White Sage, primary)and obviously, more hops.

The recipe, is here:


KIT INVENTORY:
SPECIALTY GRAIN
-- 1.5 lbs Belgian Pils
-- 0.75 lbs Oat Malt
-- 0.75 lbs Weyermann Pale Wheat
-- 0.5 lbs flaked barley
-- 0.5 lbs flaked wheat
-- 0.5 lbs flaked oats
FERMENTABLES
-- 6.3 lbs Pilsen malt syrup late addition (15 min)
-- 2 lbs Corn Sugar late addition (end of boil)
HOPS & FLAVORINGS
-- 1 oz Styrian Goldings (First Wort Hop)
-- 0.25 oz Saaz (60 min)
-- 0.75 oz Saaz (15 min)
-- 0.5 oz Coriander (0 min)

As far as hops (all pellets), I have (or will have) the Following (inc. what's in the kit):

16oz Ahtanum
3 oz Czech Saaz
4 oz German Hallertau
1-2 oz Sorachi Ace
1 oz Styrian Goldings

I've never really attempted to put together a hop schedule (only brewed a witbier out of a kit thus far, so...), but here's what I have come up with (via beerccalculus.com). It is 77.8 IBU/ 27 HBU, noting that I did not know I was going to be able to have access to Sorachi Ace at the time I formulated it:


60+min 1.0oz Styrian Goldings (first wort, per recipe)
60 min 1.25oz Ahtanum
60 min 0.75oz Hallertau
60 min 0.5oz Saaz
30 min 0.75oz Ahtanum
15 min 1.25oz Ahtanum
15 min 1.0oz Saaz
15 min 1.0oz Hallertau
dry-hop ?? Ahtanum

I was thinking that the Sorachi Ace should be a late addition, and no more than an ounce (half or 3-quarters more likely).

What I am shooting for is the idea of Chouffe Houblon, but with a Karmeliet grain base and the addition of honey (a la Hopslam) thinking the sweetness would of it should offset the IBU's. I have heard Ahtanum can be underwelming as a base hop, but I don't want the hops to be overpowering, either. I could also probably pick up an ounce of two of of something with a higher AA when I get the Sorachi Ace on Saturday, though.

Thoughts? Criticisms? Jokes (even at my expense)?

 

[jester5120]

Sorachi and ahtanum should be good for your late additions. there are some nice flavors and aroma that come from them. you've got a lot of different types of hops there but should be a pretty solid recipe. go for it

 

[dcp27]

adding honey will not add any sweetness, it'll actually dry out the beer since its nearly 100% fermentable. I'd only go with 1lb of it, 4lbs of 'sugar' is too much.

you got too much hops at the flavoring addition and not enough for aroma and theres no need for 4 different bittering adds. I'd go with something closer to this

1oz Styrian goldings FWH
1.5oz Ahtanum FWH
0.5oz Ahtanum @15
1oz Saaz @5
0.5oz Sorachi Ace @dry hop

 

[daksin]

your flaked barley, wheat, and oats all need to be mashed with some base grain in order to contribute anything but starch haze to your beer. You'll need to drop some of the extract and add some base malt to make this into a partial mash. Additionally, are you doing a full boil? A partial boil may not get you to the IBU you calculated as you'll be topping off with water. If you're doing a full boil, you'll just add all the extract at the beginning. If you're doing a partial boil, you still need to add some extract near the beginning of the boil (let's say half).

 

[dcp27]

your flaked barley, wheat, and oats all need to be mashed with some base grain in order to contribute anything but starch haze to your beer. .

theres >2lbs of base malt in it already, its fine as is. if you didn;t realize this was a partial mash kit vs a extract + steeping kit, follow this: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/easy-partial-mash-brewing-pics-75231/

 

[daksin]

I just missed the pils malt, that's all, although it's the only one with more than 100% diastatic power there. If the kit says it's enough, though, obviously it's enough.

 

[novaau]

Thank you both for the feedback. I was expecting more hostility for attempting this in all of my noobishness, and I will most certainly will cut off some of the longer boil additions, and a lb of honey, based on your feedback.

I have read that @ peak of fermentation is the best time to add honey, but to pasteurize it first in a solution with a specific gravity close to that of the OG of the beer, to compensate for the honey not being heated alone to kill microbes. Either of you, or anyone else, have experience of doing this, or is it even necessary?

 

[novaau]

I just missed the pils malt, that's all, although it's the only one with more than 100% diastatic power there. If the kit says it's enough, though, obviously it's enough.

Yeah, I am reluctant to toy with the mash makeup. The reviews of the kit have been pretty glowing, so, at least this time around, I'll confine my tinkering to hops & honey.

 

[dcp27]

I just missed the pils malt, that's all, although it's the only one with more than 100% diastatic power there. If the kit says it's enough, though, obviously it's enough.

wheat is well over 100 DP and oat malt has enough to convert itself. it only takes about 30DP for conversion so theres nothing to worry about

I have read that @ peak of fermentation is the best time to add honey, but to pasteurize it first in a solution with a specific gravity close to that of the OG of the beer, to compensate for the honey not being heated alone to kill microbes. Either of you, or anyone else, have experience of doing this, or is it even necessary?

you don't need to pastuerize honey, you can just add it right in during fermentation

 

[daksin]

wheat is well over 100 DP and oat malt has enough to convert itself. it only takes about 30DP for conversion so theres nothing to worry about

Ah- my notes have wheat at 90. Can you point me to a source page so I can update my brew book?

 

[BeerBrent]

check out john palmers online book how to brew for a way to calculate bitterness.

 

[dcp27]

Ah- my notes have wheat at 90. Can you point me to a source page so I can update my brew book?

Briess Malt & Ingredients Co.: Base Malts

it does vary between malsters and can be as low as 70ish IIRC, but always high enough to convert itself and thensome

 

[BOBrob]

I have used it at flame out (1/2 lb) and the other 1/2 at the end of primary, with out too much dryness and little flavor (sweetness) added. +1 on "dcp27" hops additions, the FWH will give you better utilization. Have fun & cheers

 

[daksin]

Briess Malt & Ingredients Co.: Base Malts

it does vary between malsters and can be as low as 70ish IIRC, but always high enough to convert itself and thensome

Much thanks- must have gotten the specs from either a weird malster, or miscopied- could have been 190 I suppose. Appreciated!

 

[novaau]

Thanks again you all for your help! I decided to do something easier (and ready much more quickly!) in the interim, so I got a Brewers Best robust porter kit at My LHBS, where I also got some Citra (2 oz pellet) and Sorachi Ace (2oz pellet & 1 oz whole leaf). Soon after I brew the porter (which I pln on doing as soon as this weekend) I plan on making a starter for this Tripel (KarmelIPA?). My question is if I am taking a small amount of yeast pre-brew day to create one, am I adding the rest of the smack pack in the fermenter, too? And if so, what is the best way to store the opened smack pack in the interim? I have a food saver sealer, so I was thinking of just throwing the opened smack pack in a larger one of their bags, sealing, then throwing back in the fridge with the starter, and brewing within a few days

 

[dcp27]

Soon after I brew the porter (which I pln on doing as soon as this weekend) I plan on making a starter for this Tripel (KarmelIPA?). My question is if I am taking a small amount of yeast pre-brew day to create one, am I adding the rest of the smack pack in the fermenter, too?

you'd be using the whole smack pack to create the starter

 

[novaau]

Wow-it seems like there's too much in the pack + DME/ H2O for my 1 L flask...or is there?

 

[dcp27]

im prety sure a smack pack is only like 1/2 cup so you should be fine. btw, a 1L starter isn't quite big enough for this. when are you planning on doing this brew? supposedly its detrimental to keep a starter for too long in advance since its super over-pitched

 

[novaau]

I was wondering if I might need a bigger flask. I have a porter to do first, likely this weekend. I was probably planning on doing the starter next week (thus or friday), and brewing sat or sun, but I wasn't planning on making the starter more than 3 days before.

I hate that I ordered a stir plate yesterday- I could have added a 2L flask for $20, with no shipping costs. 2L should be enough, shouldn't it?

 

[dcp27]

oh ok, i thought you meant you were making the starter this weekend too.

oh bummer that would have been a good add. if I calculated your OG correctly (~1.09 in 5gal?), according to mr malty just under 2L is what you want: Mrmalty.com

 

[chickypad]

If you can't make a big enough starter another option is to add all your sugar (honey and corn sugar) after 3-4 days of fermentation. This would bring your OG down quite a bit at initial pitch.
I have done this by boiling the sugar (or candi crystals) in a small amount of water then cooling and adding to fermenter. I just did a triple with 2 lbs candi and got it to dissolve in 2 c water pretty easily with constant stirring. Have never used honey.

 

[novaau]

The kit says 1.081 OG.

 

[novaau]

If you can't make a big enough starter another option is to add all your sugar (honey and corn sugar) after 3-4 days of fermentation. This would bring your OG down quite a bit at initial pitch.
I have done this by boiling the sugar (or candi crystals) in a small amount of water then cooling and adding to fermenter. I just did a triple with 2 lbs candi and got it to dissolve in 2 c water pretty easily with constant stirring. Have never used honey.

Mr. Malty is saying 1.75L with a stir plate, 1.081 OG and 1 pouch, so I should be fine- I was going to add the honey in the fermenter after things got going as it was (the 1.081 OG does NOT include it). I will definitely keep this in mind, though, as my stir plate will not be able to handle much larger than 2L as is.

 

[chickypad]

Should be okay then. I thought you only had a 1 L flask. Would like to hear how this turns out. I've got a modified Houblon Monstre batch from NB about ready to keg now. I like this tripel IPA "style".

 

[novaau]

Should be okay then. I thought you only had a 1 L flask. Would like to hear how this turns out.

I'll be picking up a 2L Saturday morning, before I brew my porter(along with Fermcap, if they have it, which might allow me to do full boils). If I'm going to get a stirplate and a 1L flask, I might as well get a 2L, too (so long as I am sticking to ales for now). I was hoping to hold that off, but I am glad I finding out now, as opposed to when I am in primary, "stuck."

I've got a modified Houblon Monstre batch from NB about ready to keg now. I like this tripel IPA "style".

Yeah, me too! I had thought Tripel Karmeliet had some notes that would lend themselves well to a larger hop addition. Then I saw the mini-mash kit on NB! SOLD!! What did you do to the Monstre, modification-wise?

If all goes well, I'll try brewing the speckled heifer kit around early May (maybe dry-hopping it, but nothing else to modification-wise), about the time this should be ready to drink.

 

[chickypad]

What did you do to the Monstre, modification-wise?

We made an batch of the all grain version last year and it came out really well. Only tripel recipe I've seen to use all pale malt though. Just playing around and trying to use ingredients we already had I made these changes:

12lb Belgian pale --> 8lb Belg pilsner/5 lb Belg pale
2 lb corn sugar - > 2 lb light candi (just wanted to try it, expensive!)
- changed bittering addition to columbus
- 20 min Hersbrucker to Hallertauer
- instead of 15 min Saaz/cascade did them as FWH
- last Saaz/cascade at flame out

Probably do a little cascade dry hop.

 

[novaau]

We made an batch of the all grain version last year and it came out really well. Only tripel recipe I've seen to use all pale malt though. Just playing around and trying to use ingredients we already had I made these changes:

12lb Belgian pale --> 8lb Belg pilsner/5 lb Belg pale
2 lb corn sugar - > 2 lb light candi (just wanted to try it, expensive!)
- changed bittering addition to columbus
- 20 min Hersbrucker to Hallertauer
- instead of 15 min Saaz/cascade did them as FWH
- last Saaz/cascade at flame out

Probably do a little cascade dry hop.

Wow ! Sounds wonderful! I hope to be in a position to do that much tinkering this time next year, but until then, I must resist the urge to do too much now (I hope I am not going too far with this one), but I do know that by starting this thread and getting such great feedback, I have made myself aware of several mistakes that I would have otherwise undoubtedly made.

 

[chickypad]

Nah, you'll do fine. You're already paying attention to your pitching rates. Make sure to aerate the cooled wort really well (i.e. shake the bejesus out of it). Looks like you'll be using wyeast 3522. I've had good results with this yeast pitching around 68 and letting it ramp up to mid 70's. Pretty fruity out of the fermenter but mellows with conditioning.
Post an update when it's finished!

 

[novaau]

Nah, you'll do fine. You're already paying attention to your pitching rates. Make sure to aerate the cooled wort really well (i.e. shake the bejesus out of it). Looks like you'll be using wyeast 3522. I've had good results with this yeast pitching around 68 and letting it ramp up to mid 70's. Pretty fruity out of the fermenter but mellows with conditioning.
Post an update when it's finished!

The ambient temp in the closet where I will be fermenting is around 63 currently. Should I try to up that? There is little space in my house without a good bit of light exposure -this closet is about it.

 

[chickypad]

well, remember that the beer temp during fermentation will probably be about 5-10 deg warmer than ambient so I think you will be fine. Per Wyeast the range for that yeast is 65-76 deg. If it seems too cold or has a hard time finishing you could move it somewhere warmer and cover with a dark t-shirt or towel as long as it's not directly in the sun.

 

[novaau]

[Sorry, off topic]I completed my porter without much trouble, and it is fermenting. Anyone know what the stuff floating in the krausen is?[/Sorry, off topic]

If I am going to brew this Sunday, I figure I need to smack my yeast and make a starter Thursday or Friday night, give it a good 18 hours or so on the plate, fridge Saturday night, take out and put on plate Sunday morning?

I have also come up with a new schedule, based largely on the input received here (thanks again!):

FW: 1.5oz Ahtanum, 1oz Styrian Goldings
30min: 1.0 oz Ahtanum
20min: 0.5oz Hallertauer
15min: 0.75oz Ahtanum
5min: 1.0 oz Saaz
dry hop: 0.5oz Sorachi Ace

Beer Calculus is saying 61.7 IBUs.

 

[novaau]

My starter is going, but I need to add volume (I had a couple of boilovers when preparing my starter wort), to get it to 2L or a little more. I figured the best procedure would be slow down the plate, take refrac reading, add cooled wort to get to 1.040 brix equiv, spin until ready to pitch (18-36 hrs later). Any suggestions?