Braggot Questions

[rickprice407]

Although I've been brewing beer for awhile, my son and I want to try a Braggot. We've seen a lot of guidelines and some recipes and will probably use an American Amber for the base style.

All of my research left me with a couple of questions:

First - I read that in order to be a braggot, 51% of my fermentable sugars needed to come from honey. Although I've seen recipes that are figured in percentages, I'm unsure of how they arrive at those numbers and would appreciate any help in that area.

The other question dealt with process. Many have the honey being added at the end of the boil. Is this correct and if so why?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Rick near Atlanta

 

[Arpolis]

I just use LME in my bragotts and figure the honey to LME ratio by weight to classify the brew as a bragott. That may not be as accurate as what some do but the last couple recipes I used have 1 3.3 lb can of LME and 5 lb of honey. I am pretty sure that is safe to call a bragott.

If using LME or DME I would not add the honey to the boil at all. If at all then just add it at flame out. Reason being is that the special aeromatics and flavors that make honey, honey is boiled out when used in the main boil. Or you can do what I did and use a cheap honey and style this like a Bochet. I boiled the honey for 2 hours on the lowest flame setting of my stove to caramelize the honey. The LME was used for the 1 hour boil of my hops addition.

 

[Golddiggie]

I wouldn't add the honey until either the wort is below 110-100F or even once fermentation has been going for a bit. IF you boil the honey, or get it above 110F, you start to blow off the more delicate flavors/aromas that it contains. The higher the temperature, the more blows away. You're going to have enough struggle to retain the flavors/aromas from the honey as it stands, why make it more difficult?

I would mash the grain, not use extract, if I was to make a braggot. Use honey malt in the mash too, in order to retain some more honey character/flavors in the finished product.

 

[Curtis2010]

Made my first braggot last season and it was awesome!

Historically braggot recipes have not been very stylistically precise so I would not get too caught up in this supposed 51% business. The official BJCP style guide lines (http://www.bjcp.org) make no mention of any such ratio, but do emphasize balancing of the malt and honey flavors (which of course implies that there is a roughly equal mix of ingredients or at least of their flavor contribution). Also, the BJCP guidelines for braggot are broad in the extreme. See the brewing wiki here on HBT for a brief discussion of braggot and a copy of the BJCP guidelines https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Braggot. To quote the guidelines re ingredients:

The fermentable sugars come from a balance of malt or malt extract and honey, although the specific balance is open to creative interpretation by brewers.

To determine the % of your grain bill for any given ingredient just convert to a common unit of measure (like Lbs) and calculate the percentage of total. Tools like BrewSmith do this automatically for you. Screen shot of a braggot recipe in BrewSmith attached showing %s.

Re process. It is also wide open. You can brew as a single batch, with honey added just about any time in the process or you can brew separately and blend. Historically these "threads" were blended just before serving.

Braggot history is a little fuzzy, but my impression, from what I have read, is that braggots really started as a matter of convenience for tavern owners .... Beer getting a little stale? Blend it with some mead -- problem solved! And, they could probably even bump the price up a bit for this "specialty" drink.

I have also accidentally lightly carbonated braggot (a little ferm activity in the bottle), making a "sparkling" braggot if you will, which was delicious.

Braggots can be brewed or blended. I made a blended braggot last year using a traditional sweet mead and an IPA with great results. One aspect of the blended approach which I really like is that you get several brewed products to enjoy. In my case, a traditional mead, an IPA, and a braggot.

If you have not already, then search the many forum posts on this subject -- lots of discussion here.

 

[Curtis2010]

+1 on recommendations not to boil honey. I don't boil when I make mead, but I do pasteurize just to reduce odds of an infection (many would argue you should not even pasteurize).

 

[Golddiggie]

+1 on recommendations not to boil honey. I don't boil when I make mead, but I do pasteurize just to reduce odds of an infection (many would argue you should not even pasteurize).

I don't pasteurize the honey/must. That requires getting to at least 140F for a time. IME, you'll get more out of the honey if you keep it under 100F. I've not had any infections with batches kept under 100F. Of course, I use Star San to sanitize the fermenters as well as anything else before it first touches the honey, or is used to mix it.

 

[rickprice407]

How do you get the honey into solution in the wort at what is essentially room temp once the fermentation has started. As my mash tun is essentially limited when it comes to high gravity brews, we mix LME into hot wort and pour it back in during the boil - no problem. But the honey at below 100F (more like 65 for fermenting) has got to be hard to dissolve, at least without some vigorous stirring - also not great for the wort.

I like the idea of a blended braggot as well though.

 

[aceparadis]

When I make braggots, I ferment just the ale first, I kinda let this act as my starter, after 50% sugar is fermented, I hit it with Nutrient and just dump my honey in there. I let the ale yeast chew on this until it slow down and pitch a killer wine strain. I let this sit for a month and do its thing. I rack it and walk away.

 

[Golddiggie]

How do you get the honey into solution in the wort at what is essentially room temp once the fermentation has started. As my mash tun is essentially limited when it comes to high gravity brews, we mix LME into hot wort and pour it back in during the boil - no problem. But the honey at below 100F (more like 65 for fermenting) has got to be hard to dissolve, at least without some vigorous stirring - also not great for the wort.

I like the idea of a blended braggot as well though.

As long as the honey flows enough to get poured into the fermenter, the yeast will go through it. You don't need to have it 100% into solution right from the start. I've had fermentations where there's been a thick layer of honey in the bottom at the start. It doesn't take long for the yeast to find it and go right through it.

I would pick an ale yeast strain that can go to your target ABV% first. IF it's not hit the FG/attenuation level you want, when it's done, then decide about pitching a wine yeast.

Now I'm going to have to make a braggot soon. Need to secure another fermenter before I do though. Since I have one tied up with my TripSix batch (~15% barlewine) with a couple of months to go still. I'll be emptying out one this week and another within another two weeks. Still, I don't want to have just one for my regular batches while these are in process.

 

[rickprice407]

OK - so if I were going to use an amber for the base beer (and I understand I can use any style for the base) I would figure out how much honey I needed to get at least 51% of the sugar from it. Brew the beer minus the honey, chill and aerate the wort, pitch a yeast strong enough to get to the FG I want (Wyeast 1056 or 1728??) and let it go. Then in a few days, pour in the honey and some Wyeast nutrient. Once this slows down then repitch a wine yeast (Wyeast 4021??) and let it finish.

How long is it going to be on that yeast and should I repitch into a secondary or leave in the primary? Also, my primary is usually at around 65 - 68 degrees and I move them into a dark corner of the room for secondary or late primary. Is this OK?

Thanks

 

[Golddiggie]

Wyeast 1728 can easily go to 12% ABV. Are you planning to go above 12% with this? IF you are, I'd use a Lalvin yeast strain to finish it, NOT a Wyeast strain. For one thing, Lalvin yeast will be far less expensive. For another EC-1118 (most likely an equal, or superior to the Wyeast 4021) goes to 18%. You could also try Lalvin K1-V1116, which is a very commonly used in meads.

IF you're going above 12% (or 13-14%) then think about adding the Lalvin strain. Otherwise, just let Wyeast 1728 do it's thing.

 

[Halbrust]

I just bottled a historic recipe, listed as a small metheglin but it's braggotish.

Ingredients:

1.5 gallon water
2 pounds honey
¾ of a nutmeg
1 small hand of ginger
¼ cup of crushed malt (RAHR 2-row)
Fermentis Safale S-04 dry ale yeast​

Procedure:

Bring 1 ½ gallons of spring water to 100 °F Pour 2 pounds of raw honey into the water. Slowly stir until all honey is incorporated into the water. Leave pot to boil over a medium to medium-high flame, constantly skimming the protein foam from the top of the liquid. (It bothers me to boil honey, as it removes all the subtle nuances of flavor and aroma, but I am recreating the recipe and Digby clearly stated to boil the honey).

Once no more foam appears, add in ¾ of a nutmeg and one small hand of sliced ginger. Let the must boil for 60 minutes. Turn off the heat and add ¼ cup of crushed malt. Stir the must continually for 5 minutes. Place the brew kettle in a cold water bath, and continue to stir often until the temperature reaches 75°.

Strain the must through a fine mesh strainer into your fermentation vessel. Add the yeast starter. Attach an airlock to the vessel and set in a cool dark place.

Bottle after 7 days. This mead will most likely carbonate in the bottle, so take precautionary measures with bottle storage to avoid injury in the case of exploding bottles.​

The original recipe from the 16th century:

Take four Gallons of water, and set it over the fire. Put into it, when it is warm, eight pounds of honey; as the scum riseth, take it clean off. When it is clear, put into it three Nutmegs quartered; three or four Races of Ginger sliced; Then let it boil a whole hour, Then take it off the fire, and put to it two handfuls of ground Malt; stir it about with a round stick, till it be as cold as wort, when you put yest to it. Then strain it out into a pot or Tub, that hath a spiggot and faucet, and put to it a pint of very good Ale-yest; so let it work for two days; Then cover it close for about four or five days, and so draw it out into bottles. It will be ready to drink within three weeks.​

 

[Curtis2010]

I don't pasteurize the honey/must. That requires getting to at least 140F for a time. IME, you'll get more out of the honey if you keep it under 100F. I've not had any infections with batches kept under 100F. Of course, I use Star San to sanitize the fermenters as well as anything else before it first touches the honey, or is used to mix it.

OK, well maybe next time I will take a walk on the "wild side" and only go to 100F.

Do you know of any specific flavor components which break down between 100-140F?

 

[rickprice407]

OK - I think my plan is to make a Marzen as the base and add 20 lbs of Honey to get it over 51% of the sugar. Add the Honey to the carboys and add the beer. Pitch (Wyeast 1084) and start to ferment as usual. After the initial activity slows, pitch the EC-1118 and let it go to town.

Last question is this. What should braggot taste like. This looks like it goes totally dry as I've got about a 17 ABV showing in Beersmith and the wine yeast has a tolerance of around 18%. Should I be looking for a totally dry beer or one with some sweetness?

 

[huntingohio]

Fermenting with honey is kind of wierd, if you let it age some of the sweetness will come back. I dont know on these braggot recipies, I usally shoot for a more beer like abv and use nottingham

 

[Golddiggie]

OK - I think my plan is to make a Marzen as the base and add 20 lbs of Honey to get it over 51% of the sugar. Add the Honey to the carboys and add the beer. Pitch (Wyeast 1084) and start to ferment as usual. After the initial activity slows, pitch the EC-1118 and let it go to town.

Last question is this. What should braggot taste like. This looks like it goes totally dry as I've got about a 17 ABV showing in Beersmith and the wine yeast has a tolerance of around 18%. Should I be looking for a totally dry beer or one with some sweetness?

Are you insane??? What size batch is this where it comes out as only 17% ABV with 20 POUNDS of honey added???? 20 pounds of honey,alone, in a 5 gallon batch is over 18% ABV.

 

[rickprice407]

Using a Marzen with a normal ABV of 5.5% as a base, Beersmith shows (on a 10 gallon batch) for 20 lbs of sugar to be 54% of the fermentable sugar. ABV at 10 gallons shows 17.4%.

Maybe insane - all depends on point of view of who's asking but hopefully Beersmith is pretty close. Not for 5 gallon batch tho.

Rick

 

[Golddiggie]

Using a Marzen with a normal ABV of 5.5% as a base, Beersmith shows (on a 10 gallon batch) for 20 lbs of sugar to be 54% of the fermentable sugar. ABV at 10 gallons shows 17.4%.

Maybe insane - all depends on point of view of who's asking but hopefully Beersmith is pretty close. Not for 5 gallon batch tho.

Rick

When I've formulated meads in BeerSmith it tends to assume they'll go to about .960-.970 FG.

I would do a simple test to find out how much sugar content is in the honey you'll be using so that you'll have a better idea on it's contribution. Depending on the honey itself, you could be adding about 70 gravity points to the batch (base of 1.072 with 20# of honey in a 10 gallon volume).

Honey sugar level can vary, widely, from harvest to harvest and even between hives. Depending on what you're going to use, where it came from, etc. you could have either more or less sugar content in it. I would do at least a simple test to figure out what 1# of honey in a 1 gallon must/mixture will give you. Go on a small scale to make it easier (and cost less). Basically, figure out how much your hydrometer test vial will hold and mix up the solution for that volume. Then you can figure out how many pounds per gallon will get you the addition you need. Or enter in the sugar percentage into BeerSmith for it to run the numbers.

I do have a hydrometer that goes to about 60 brix. So, I can do the formulation a bit easier. I also test a bit of must (as I'm making it) to figure out what I should get for the OG. Just to see if my numbers are correct or not. The current bucket of honey I have is higher in sugar content than assumed by the tool I use to formulate (the one on the Got Mead? site). It's also higher than the 'yield' of 75% found in BeerSmith.

 

[Curtis2010]

...
Last question is this. What should braggot taste like. This looks like it goes totally dry as I've got about a 17 ABV showing in Beersmith and the wine yeast has a tolerance of around 18%. Should I be looking for a totally dry beer or one with some sweetness?
...

The mead I used to make braggot last season was made with ale yeast so it was quite sweet. This made for a nice balance with the intense hops of the IPA.

Given the broad style guidelines, it really comes down to how to you want it taste.

 

[aceparadis]

The lees for wine yeasts work differently then ale and lager in autolysis. When they die they realease different things that contribute to mouthfeel. I've left a mead on the lees for a year with out negitive impact.