Bottle Conditioning vs Bottling from Keg Based on Style?

[Hwk-I-St8]

I brewed a lot in the 90's, stopped when kids became the priority, and recently got back into brewing. Back then I did the priming sugar bottling thing, now I keg, force carb and bottle from the keg when desired.

I was thinking about brewing a big stout that will be "barrel aged" (long secondary fermentation in a carboy with bourbon soaked oak).

My question is this:

First, will there be enough viable yeast after say 3-5 months of aging to carb with the priming sugar?

If not, how do you deal with that...pitch more yeast?

Second, even if there is viable yeast, is the resulting beer better (or noticeably different) than kegging, carbing and bottling from there?

For my NEIPA's, I would not want to bottle condition due to the warm aging during carbing of a beer I want to drink fresh.

A big stout I would want bottled both for some aging but also because my wife won't drink it, so I need something on tap that she likes. Just trying to figure out if there's any reason to go "old school" and bottle condition or if I should just bottle from the keg.

 

[Revvy]

1) When in doubt add more yeast. In fact one of the best yeasts to do just that with these days is Danstar's CBC-1 Cask and BOTTLE CONDITIONING YEAST.

It's formulated to do exactly that, be the bottling yeast. I've also used it in a keg with sugar to naturally carb a beer like it was firken and it works great for that.

2 It really depends on the style of beer. To me there are just some beers that HAVE to be bottle conditioned. For me that meas serious belgians (I'm not talking like a wit which is fine kegged up) but a Tripel or a Dubble, and also some historic styles. In fact for bottle conditioning some styles I also think the type of sugar is important. Most historic beers, like my Kentucky Common I prime with table sugar. Because it's doubtful they even had corn sugar back in the 19th century. Same with a lot of higher carbed Belgian beers like Tripels where the beer has almost champagne like tiny bubbles in the head, corn sugar does it for me.

And big beers like Barleywines and stuff, if they benefit from again, IMHO, they benefit from bottle conditioning (plus kegging them is too dangerous, I'd drink it like tap water. LOL)

Again personally I never bottle from a keg. The beers I want in bottles I bottle condition, to me there's something noticeable about a well done, bottle conditioned beer... that second fermentation is so different from just keg carbing with co2 (and that's why some beers are fun to natural carb in the keg.)

My day to day drinking beers I keg, and the that need to be aged I let nature take it's course. I don't tend to fill bottles for storage from my kegs... If I'm packaging that up, I'm putting it in a growler (or at worse a grolsch bottle to give to someone who is going to drink it quickly.)



YMMV

 

[jaspass]

@Revvy offers a sound perspective. Personally, I do keg my big barrel aged brews for force carbonating, and bottle from there. I like the simplicity of kegging and bottling from kegs, and the cleaner pours it will offer later with no sediment. I only bottle condition Belgians anymore where that is stylistically expected. But yes, those big stouts can be dangerous on tap!

I too have an understanding with my wife. I'll keep a beer or two on tap she enjoys, and will often bottle off (from keg) the bigger beers so they last longer and aren't chewing up a tap for a long period of time.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

@Revvy offers a sound perspective. Personally, I do keg my big barrel aged brews for force carbonating, and bottle from there. I like the simplicity of kegging and bottling from kegs, and the cleaner pours it will offer later with no sediment. I only bottle condition Belgians anymore where that is stylistically expected. But yes, those big stouts can be dangerous on tap!

I too have an understanding with my wife. I'll keep a beer or two on tap she enjoys, and will often bottle off (from keg) the bigger beers so they last longer and aren't chewing up a tap for a long period of time.

This is in line with my thoughts but I was looking for perspectives like @Revvy has. In general, I don't want to sacrifice quality for convenience. Ultimately, I want to brew beers that I enjoy as much as the best ones I've had but are so hard to come by or outrageously expensive (a tall order living in the shadow of Toppling Goliath). I'm getting very close on the NEIPAs, but haven't even broke ground on other styles.

As long as I keep good stuff on tap for the Mrs, she's willing to put up with the host of equipment and friends hanging out on brew days. It helps that I put them on the calendar so that she knows when they're coming.

Anyway, I'm working up a recipe for a big chewy stout that I'm going to age either in a bourbon barrel style or, more likely, a captain morgan twist on the BA approach. If I put the time an money into this, I don't want to make a mistake (bottle condition with insufficient yeast) or cut corners.

I'm assuming that the "big boys" force carb their big stouts?

 

[Revvy]

Anyway, I'm working up a recipe for a big chewy stout that I'm going to age either in a bourbon barrel style or, more likely, a captain morgan twist on the BA approach. If I put the time an money into this, I don't want to make a mistake (bottle condition with insufficient yeast) or cut corners.

This isn't rocket science, you add bottling yeast.

I did it for my 5 year (3 years aged in a fresh bourbon barrel) 19.75% barleywine made with 50 year old honey. When you're racking to the bottling bucket you open up a pack of yeast and add it to the flowing beer. Bob's your uncle. It's one extra step to insure it working.

It's a matter of perspective I guess, to me force carbing a really special beer that SHOULD be bottled is cutting corners. You're cheating yourself out of the extra special added dimension that you can't get with straight force carbing. Especially if you're planning to age whatever it is you've worked hard on.

One thing a lot of folks especially those "kegging only" type people forget that bottle conditioning step that you don't get with force carbing. First it's going to eat up any oxygen left in the headspace which could possibly oxydize your the beer, and next, the yeast goes in and once again, and for the last time "cleans up after itself" when it's done doing it's job. That again will eat away any "off flavor precursers" leftover. That aspect of living yeast still doing what's in it's inherent nature to do, and that is to clean up it's messes is to me an important step in helping make those special beers special.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

This isn't rocket science, you add bottling yeast.

I did it for my 5 year (3 years aged in a fresh bourbon barrel) 19.75% barleywine made with 50 year old honey. When you're racking to the bottling bucket you open up a pack of yeast and add it to the flowing beer. Bob's your uncle. It's one extra step to insure it working.

It's a matter of perspective I guess, to me force carbing a really special beer that SHOULD be bottled is cutting corners. You're cheating yourself out of the extra special added dimension that you can't get with straight force carbing. Especially if you're planning to age whatever it is you've worked hard on.

One thing a lot of folks especially those "kegging only" type people forget that bottle conditioning step that you don't get with force carbing. First it's going to eat up any oxygen left in the headspace which could possibly oxydize your the beer, and next, the yeast goes in and once again, and for the last time "cleans up after itself" when it's done doing it's job. That again will eat away any "off flavor precursers" leftover. That aspect of living yeast still doing what's in it's inherent nature to do, and that is to clean up it's messes is to me an important step in helping make those special beers special.

I'm convinced. I'm going to bottle condition this big stout. Thanks for the great info.

 

[eric19312]

I want to try that CBC-1 yeast for sure!

I think a refermentation in the bottle is especially helpful for beers you intend to age. The bottle fermentation should scrub oxygen introduced during packaging and may provide additional conditioning benefits. Beers for aging to my thinking include big beers--belgians, barleywines, big stouts, some sours.

I have a beergun and will use it to package a few bottles off a keg for sending to a competition where I want the beer to stay fresh for a few weeks. This is for APA, IPA other quick turn around drink-em-young beers. For taking a bottle to a homebrew club meeting or visit I don't bother with the gun and just use a growler filler.

 

[jaspass]

I can relate to the quest all together. I brew my big beers for the same reason, and am always looking for the best results, period. I apologize if my other post came across as doing it only for convenience. If you ask my wife she would roll her eyes at how much I obsess over my beers, and each step. Basically I'm not force carbonating to cut corners

I am in Chicago and am surrounding by and close to many breweries with barrels programs, (Goose Island, Revolution, Founders, New Holland, etc...), and I believe they all force carbonate. So if your guage of quality is these big guys, then you'd be in good company force carbonating. In fairness to Revvy, they might be missing out and bottle conditioning might be an awesome way to go for this style. In truth I haven't tried it for that style beer so I honestly can't say. However I can say I've never been disappointed with my results from force carbonating (for what it's worth).

Maybe it's time for an experiment! I can split my next big brew batch and force carbonate some, and bottle condition the rest. Crack one of each of those a year later and find out.

 

[madscientist451]

I'm somewhat of a traditionalist and agree that bottle conditioned beers are different than force carbonated and then bottled from a keg.
However, I've never done a side by side comparison, so perhaps that's a good experiment to put on my bucket list.
The decision to keg vs bottle, is more complicated than it would initially seem:
-The usual bottling routine is more work: mix up a sugar solution,
transfer beer to bottling bucket, add yeast (if needed)
-The chance for more oxidation or off flavors is increased with the bottling bucket/sugar addition.
-Once the beer is bottled, making any changes is a big problem, if you age in a keg you can make additions.
-You can purge the C02 from the headspace of a keg easier than you can do that with a carboy.
I have a "wood aged" bourbon porter (used oak cubes) in a keg right now, but its just sitting there, I'm trying to decide it I should bottle it off the keg or just leave it.
I was trying to clone a Kentucky Barrel Aged beer, and when I did a side by side taste test, I discovered that my version was lacking in Bourbon aroma and flavor. I had only put enough C02 on to seal it, (after bleeding out the headspace) so it was pretty easy to open up the keg and dump 2 more shots of bourbon in. That brought the flavor/aroma right up. I'm thinking I'll keep taste testing the keg and bottle off the keg eventually.
I've had some issues in the past with long term aging in carboys, so I don't mind using keg space for aging beer/cider.
There are many other factors involved in deciding which way to go, including how much free time you have and how many kegs you have available.