Bottle conditioning > do we need Oxygen ?
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VikeMan
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Yeast do not need any additional oxygen for bottle carbonation. There are already more than enough yeast cells to do the job, so no O2 is needed. There are large commercial breweries that go to great lengths to purge their bottles of O2, even when the beers will be bottle carbonated. They do this because they know that the yeast will not use all of the O2 from the headspace, and they need/want to limit dissolved O2 to the very low parts per billion (note billion, not million) at packaging.
That said, most homebrewers don't have the means to effectively purge their bottles of O2. While this won't necessarily "ruin" the beer, it does shorten its shelf life.
That said, most homebrewers don't have the means to effectively purge their bottles of O2. While this won't necessarily "ruin" the beer, it does shorten its shelf life.
In addition to what VikeMan said, you will find numerous threads on the subject of minimizing oxidation in bottle conditioned beers on this forum. IMO however, you're never going to get down to ppb without taking some fairly difficult (if not impossible) steps. That doesn't mean you shouldn't do what you can. It just means that you should be realistic about the shelf life of your homebrew, especially with respect to hop aroma and flavor.
BrewnWKopperKat
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And store it cold after it is conditioned.
That reminds me... I need to buy another fridge.
BrewnWKopperKat
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Understood that not everyone has a separate fridge (or fridge space) for 48 bottles (a 5 gal batch).
But maybe there's space for 18 - so put a 12 pack in the back (these are the last bottles) and put a 6 pack in the front (for the week).
Or maybe there's a basement corner (perhaps where ambient temperature is 55F) and a beverage cooler plus some dry ice could make a difference.
But maybe there's space for 18 - so put a 12 pack in the back (these are the last bottles) and put a 6 pack in the front (for the week).
Or maybe there's a basement corner (perhaps where ambient temperature is 55F) and a beverage cooler plus some dry ice could make a difference.
48? Try 192. Well OK, maybe more like 150 - 160 depending on how fast people return my 750 mL bottles. I've really got to start drinking more.
Yeast need oxygen for their replication process. Your yeast has already gone through that and you have way more yeast in the bottle than is needed for carbonation.
My bottles sit where it is 72F and my biggest problem with beer keeping is the brewer. He keeps drinking it. The longest I have had beer in the bottle at 72F was 2 years and that last bottle was the best.
There are lots of myths about beer. Learn to differentiate between myth and fact. You wallet will thank you.
Leave that fridge in the store. They need it worse than you.
BrewnWKopperKat
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Storing food and beverages cool(er) slows down spoilage. Based on the item being stored (and available resources), plan (and budget) accordingly.
There appear to be two claims (with regard to O2 and bottle conditioning)
- yeast consume all of the O2 during bottle conditioning;
- yeast consume only some of the O2 during bottle conditioning.
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pvtpublic
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#2 I would consider plausible. Keeping your headspace to a minimal, and capping on foam (if possible) would be the safest bet, imo.
Teufelhunde
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2 YEARS????? I can't get past 2 months.....
I thought it was pretty well established that the yeast will not be able to consume all of the O2 in the headspace during bottle conditioning, and that O2 will eventually dissolve into the beer. People have posted some fairly convincing photographic evidence on this very forum. But perhaps there is countervailing evidence that I am unaware of.
BrewnWKopperKat
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It may be that there are two valid approaches, not one: Minimize head space or keep it cold.
What I do know is this. I bought a craft beer from a store that claimed to get it fresh and store it cold. The craft beer was 5 months old (based on "bottled on" date). It tasted to me like a craft beer that was 2 months old.
Storing beverages cool / cold slows down spoilage.
There is also the question of the initial quality of the beer going into the bottle. Was the beer "damaged" before the beer go into the bottle (or during the transfer)?
eta: with hop forward styles, The New IPA (book) seems to offer the possibility of 'endless' combinations of minerals and oils that can lead to rapid staling of beer. I don't brew a lot of hazies, but when I do, I brew them in small batches, store them cold, and enjoy them fresh.
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VikeMan
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Regarding yeast's ability to use "all" the O2 in the bottles' headspace, I don't have hard numbers. But I do have a couple of anecdotes/quotes from guys who should know and who spend a lot of money minimizing the O2 in the headspace.
John Mallet (Bells) said that the yeast will use about a third of the headspace O2. (Bells also CO2 purges and caps on foam, so one would have to assume John is talking about a much smaller amount of starting O2 than a homebrewer would typically get in the headspace.)
Garrett Oliver (Brooklyn) said "Yeast can remove small amounts of dissolved oxygen from beer, but very little from the bottle headspace air, which means these benefits will only attain to breweries using sophisticated brewing methods and very good packaging equipment."
For anyone who believes that yeast will use all of the headspace O2, what do they believe the yeast are actually doing with that O2?
John Mallet (Bells) said that the yeast will use about a third of the headspace O2. (Bells also CO2 purges and caps on foam, so one would have to assume John is talking about a much smaller amount of starting O2 than a homebrewer would typically get in the headspace.)
Garrett Oliver (Brooklyn) said "Yeast can remove small amounts of dissolved oxygen from beer, but very little from the bottle headspace air, which means these benefits will only attain to breweries using sophisticated brewing methods and very good packaging equipment."
For anyone who believes that yeast will use all of the headspace O2, what do they believe the yeast are actually doing with that O2?
BrewnWKopperKat
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Here's another consideration:
Craft brewers do not control the "supply chain" between them and me. The shipping, warehousing, and beer store environment is often "not idea".
Home brewers who bottle condition may not need to use "best of" craft beer packaging practices to enjoy good beer over a number of months - as they can have better control over the handling and storage of the beer.
Craft brewers do not control the "supply chain" between them and me. The shipping, warehousing, and beer store environment is often "not idea".
Home brewers who bottle condition may not need to use "best of" craft beer packaging practices to enjoy good beer over a number of months - as they can have better control over the handling and storage of the beer.
I think it is well established that leaving a standard headspace of air can be killer to a bottle conditioned NEIPA. I have personally seen negative effects from oxidation in moderately hoppy Pale Ales.
But what about other styles?
I recently played around with a couple different techniques for avoiding oxidation with a Belgian Single (sorta) and a Saison. So far I have never been able to pick out the difference between one of the bottles that used anti-oxidants or where the headspace was purged with CO2, vs the control batches. So far these bottles are in the 2 to 3 months range and have been stored at room temperature.
What about a light and crisp style like a Pilsner? Would the oxygen kill off hop or grain flavors? What about bigger dark beers like stouts or quads? Would the oxygen be beneficial to these styles?
Part of me says that the obvious oxidation that occurs with an NEIPA means that all bottle condition beers are oxidized. That should mean that it makes sense to take steps to avoid oxidation for every batch and style. Though I just bottled a Dubbel and I did not take any special steps.
But what about other styles?
I recently played around with a couple different techniques for avoiding oxidation with a Belgian Single (sorta) and a Saison. So far I have never been able to pick out the difference between one of the bottles that used anti-oxidants or where the headspace was purged with CO2, vs the control batches. So far these bottles are in the 2 to 3 months range and have been stored at room temperature.
What about a light and crisp style like a Pilsner? Would the oxygen kill off hop or grain flavors? What about bigger dark beers like stouts or quads? Would the oxygen be beneficial to these styles?
Part of me says that the obvious oxidation that occurs with an NEIPA means that all bottle condition beers are oxidized. That should mean that it makes sense to take steps to avoid oxidation for every batch and style. Though I just bottled a Dubbel and I did not take any special steps.
BrewnWKopperKat
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Transfer it carefully, package it safely, store it cold, drink it fresh. 
DuncB
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What about the addition of an anti oxidant with the priming sugar, whilst also counter pressure filling?
Does anyone have any figures on the amount of oxygen that can be bound by the antioxidant?
I'm suggesting ascorbic acid, not sodium metabisulphite whic coul suppress/ stop yeast activity.
Does anyone have any figures on the amount of oxygen that can be bound by the antioxidant?
I'm suggesting ascorbic acid, not sodium metabisulphite whic coul suppress/ stop yeast activity.
The chemistry doesn't actually work this way, but I suppose you can think of each molecule of the reduced form of ascorbic acid as having two hydrogens to donate. So two molecules of ascorbic acid can turn one molecule of oxygen into two molecules of water. MW of ascorbic acid is 176; MW of O2 is 32; so I guess a mg of ascorbic acid can theoretically neutralize 11 mg of oxygen. An inch of headspace in a 12 oz long neck is what, maybe 8 cc? A cc of dry air weighs 1.3 mg and air is 23% oxygen by weight, so about 2.4 mg of O2 in each bottle, which means you'd need 0.22 mg of ascorbic acid per bottle. That's assuming zero dissolved O2 in the beer, which is almost certainly not true but I have no idea how you would know the real number.
But like I said, the chemistry doesn't actually work that way and besides, I'm sure I screwed up the arithmetic anyway.
Edit - Yes, I did mess up the arithmetic. Teach me to do this stuff in my head. You need 11 mg of ascorbic acide for each mg of O2. So about 26 mg per bottle. Or about1.5 15 grams in 5 gallons.
But like I said, the chemistry doesn't actually work that way and besides, I'm sure I screwed up the arithmetic anyway.
Edit - Yes, I did mess up the arithmetic. Teach me to do this stuff in my head. You need 11 mg of ascorbic acide for each mg of O2. So about 26 mg per bottle. Or about
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It would be cool to see the math/science on how anti-oxidants work.
I have tried using PMB at 0.035 g/gal and Ascorbic Acid at 0.6 g/gal when bottling. At that level, I did not notice any negative effects on carbonation and I did not notice any off flavors.
I have not adopted that as my standard process because I have read concerns with both. That some people are very sensitive to sulfites (or sulfates?) and there is the potential for off flavors from metabisulfates. Also that Ascorbic Acid can actually cause oxidation (which might not be true in beer?).
DuncB
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Thanks.
I normally put 5 g of ascorbic acid into my (starsan purged with ferment gas) keg before closed transfer. I'd assume very little dissolved oxygen in my beer given it's finished ferment in a closed spunded fermenter.
Plus some of the oxygen is going to be used by the yeast as well.
Well yeah, but the OP is bottling.
DuncB
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Yes but 5g in 20 litres is about 0.22g per bottle so suggests about the right ball park figure.
That's only about 23 bottles.
Bill Tong
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I have found that storing it cold accelerates the oxidation process. I believe it is because once cold the beer then absorbs all that oxygen in the headspace.
I watched a documentary the other day where they show how Chimay (i think it is) squirts a small amount of sterile water from a jet into the bottle which foams up the entire neck before they cap the bottle. Thought it was very interesting.
VikeMan
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I don't know how you found this, but it sounds like you are confusing O2 solubility with oxidation. Cold beer in a bottle can temporarily hold a little more O2 (at equilibrium with the head space O2, per Henry's law) than warm beer in a bottle. But both will dissolve all of it. The reason is that as O2 is dissolved it will be used in oxidative reactions, unbalancing the previous equilibrium. Thus more O2 dissolves and gets used, repeating until all of the O2 from the headspace has been dissolved and used.
The reason staling (including oxidation) happens faster at warmer temps than at colder temps is that chemical reactions happen faster at warmer temps than at colder temps. A rule of thumb is 2-3 times faster per 10C increase in temp. It's these reaction rates (not the solubility of O2) that drive the rate of oxidation/staling.
Just to be clear, storing beer cold does not accelarate the oxidation process. That's a rather extraordinary claim, so if you still believe it, please provide hard evidence.
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BrewnWKopperKat
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Noted.
I won't repeat my anecdotal story on craft beer stored cold other than to say, for me, it appears to have doubled the shelf life (6 month old beer stored cold tasted like a 3 month old beer stored warm).
"Defense in depth" - I store my beer cold.
Note that without being able to measure key factors during the conditioning and packaging process, bottling hop-forward styles is likely to be a long running experimental and observational topic.
(Yes, I am aware that some people get good results by packaging with no head space. I also read of an occasional cracked bottle. And I also see an occasional "purple beer" story. So there may be more to the bottling hop-forward styles story than just "head space" [trace minerals?
]).(Be open to the possibility that there may be multiple solutions to these problems - and the best solution or solutions may be situation specific.)
VikeMan
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This is correct and is not just anecdotal. It's in all the brewing textbooks and coursework. And the scientific literature. Here, for example, is a study by Jaskula-Goiris et al.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1UCO2u5IwLLygI6xU-aYYUOeLEqMQ_D99
I told myself I wasn't going to spend more time rehashing established science, but decided I couldn't just watch this one become just a battle of anecdotes.
Bill Tong
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Ok i have no evidence, other than oxidized beer after storing it cold for 2 months. And i can't say it accelerates it either, because i have not done any side by side testing. You are the expert, so let's go with that. I keg now anyway, because i couldn't face another beer that tastes like cardboard.
VikeMan
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FWIW, the same phenomenon applies to kegging, i.e. colder is better for shelf life.
A relatively light read on the subject:
https://sonsofalchemy.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Oxidation_and_Freshness.pdf
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BrewnWKopperKat
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Do what works for you.
FWIW, other people have figured out how to bottle most styles so that the beer doesn't taste like cardboard. It's the hop forward styles that are seem to require some additional attention.
As for the idea of color change during bottle condition, there's a relatively current topic with the same name over in either AHA forums or /r/homebrewing. There are a couple of anecdotal stories and/or links and/or speculation around trace mineral content.
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