Boil times 60 vs 90 min?

[Hobo]

I’m going to do a Jamil Zainasheff Belgian Strong Ale, 5 gallon, all-extract recipe from his book: “Brewing Classic Styles”. It has only 2 fermentables and 1 hop:

8.4 lbs of Pilsener LME
3 lbs of Cane Sugar
and 2.25 oz of Czech Saaz hops

I need to do a partial boil due to the size of my pot. His recipe suggests a 90 min boil, but from what I’ve been reading even a 60 min boil for extracts is too much. Any suggestions on adjusting the boil times? Or does this long boil have to do with the 90 min for the hops and the fact it is a strong Belgian?

 

[passedpawn]

Jamil always recommends 90m boil when using pilsener malt. This is because (in his mind) the pilsener malt has such a light kilning that the precursors to DMS (Dimethyl Sulfide) are still largely intact. DMS, which creates an awful creamed corn flavor to the beer, is created and driven from the malt during the boil. So his logic is that since there's a lot more to get rid of in lightly kilned malts, you need to boil longer.

Sometimes I boil 90m, sometimes I don't (I have a variable boil time in order to hit my OG). I don't think I've noticed any DMS in any of the many, many lagers I've made. So, I can't support Jamil's need to boil longer from my own experience.

Also, I'm guessing that the longer boil is only for all-grain brewers. I'd say that if you're using pils extract, there is no need at all for that, and you only need the boil for hop isomerization.

 

[lumpher]

I've used pilsner dme many times. I do a 60 minute boil with it, and I've never had DMS in mine. 60 is fine for either extract ( lme or dme ). His 90 minute suggestion, I'm sure, is because of the pils malt.

 

[unionrdr]

I definitely have to agree on the pils malt. Even the supposedly well-modified ones seem to need more mash time than one hour to not get starch haze in my hybrid lagers. Let alone DMS, which I've never gotten so far in 1 hour boil. But I did notice that a 90 minute boil did get rid of a bit more starch haze in my PM hybrids.
So in the case of mashing pils malt, I'm thinking a 90 minute mash to assure better conversion, & a 90 minute boil after that?

 

[Hobo]

I take then if using all-grains, do a 90 min. boil when using Pilsner malt. If using Pilsner LME do a 60 min. boil. Thanks for the information!

 

[dmtaylor]

Boiling an extract beer for any longer than 15 minutes for purposes of eliminating DMS is nonsense. Concerns over DMS are essentially proven false whether for extract or all-grain, but even moreso with extract since it's already been boiled as part of the manufacturing process. There's no DMS in there. Shorten your boil to as little as 15 minutes and you'll be just fine. Don't believe me? Spend some time on brulosophy.com, and also run your own experiments, and find out.

 

[RM-MN]

Boiling an extract beer for any longer than 15 minutes for purposes of eliminating DMS is nonsense. Concerns over DMS are essentially proven false whether for extract or all-grain, but even moreso with extract since it's already been boiled as part of the manufacturing process. There's no DMS in there. Shorten your boil to as little as 15 minutes and you'll be just fine. Don't believe me? Spend some time on brulosophy.com, and also run your own experiments, and find out.

You may find that you don't get the bittering that you expect if you only boil for 15 minutes although I've read that 90% of the hop oil isomerization is complete in 30 minutes so I might suggest the 30 minute boil instead of the 90.

 

[dmtaylor]

You may find that you don't get the bittering that you expect if you only boil for 15 minutes although I've read that 90% of the hop oil isomerization is complete in 30 minutes so I might suggest the 30 minute boil instead of the 90.

I'd agree with that. 30 minutes is a decent compromise, at least if you're not using pre-hopped extract.

 

[Hobo]

Wow... OK, a 30 min. boil it is. Thank you!!
Would you add any steeping grains to the pre-boil or go with the recipe as Jamil has designed it?

 

[dmtaylor]

No, Jamil is right -- no specialty malts are necessary. You can add some if you want, but it's totally optional and not required for the style.

 

[unionrdr]

In the case of mashing, I still think a 90 minute mash for more complete conversion is needed. In my case, with so-called " well modified grains" anyway. Seems to me a 90 minute mash would be more effective at clearing up starch haze than the boil. With extracts, 60 minutes is fine.

 

[dmtaylor]

In the case of mashing, I still think a 90 minute mash for more complete conversion is needed. In my case, with so-called " well modified grains" anyway. Seems to me a 90 minute mash would be more effective at clearing up starch haze than the boil. With extracts, 60 minutes is fine.

With any due respect, I disagree that a long mash is necessary for all-grain beers, but more importantly I fail to see any relevance whatsoever in this thread. We're talking about extract, not mashing.

 

[unionrdr]

I know, but since others brought it up, I put in my experiences. As far as extracts are concerned, It's more process & yeast related.

 

[dmtaylor]

...others brought it up...

They did?? Go have another beer, my friend!

 

[unionrdr]

See #2 above. Not drinking with all these meds I'm on trying to heal my left leg before new hip goes in...

 

[passedpawn]

Concerns over DMS are essentially proven false whether for extract or all-grain

I've never had a problem with DMS, but I've always followed the simple rules to eliminate it, namely sufficient boil strength/time and keeping the boil kettle uncovered.

I had a friend make a schwarzbier several years ago that was undrinkable (we tried hard though!) due to DMS. He blamed it on a very weak boil (I think he ran out of gas at some point). That dark lager, made from pilsner malt, tasted just like a can of creamed corn. I like creamed corn, but not in my beer

But to reiterate what everyone else already said, if a brewer is using extract (dry or liquid), the DMS as already been boiled from it.