BIAB recipe question

[Troutchaser]

So I'm getting ready to do my first ever biab and was thinking of doing a pretty basic pale ale. My question is do I change anything on a recipe if I'm doing biab, would one of the morebeer ingredient kits work fine or do I need to modify something? One more thing how the heck do I figure out how much water is needed for a 5 gallon batch? I'm sure these are question that have been asked many times so thanks for any info.

 

[soccerdad]

What size kettle? Can you mash with 6.5 to 7 gallons? If so you will be fine with the MB all grain recipe.

 

[Troutchaser]

Yeah I should have plenty of room. I have a 15 gallon kettle. Thanks for the reply!

 

[doug293cz]

You can find a good BIAB water volume calculator here: http://pricelessbrewing.github.io/BiabCalc/

Brew on

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Thanks for the plug doug.

You shouldn't have to change a recipe anymore than any other brewing method. Just adjust for your efficiency (how much grain to use/ OG expectation) and equipment profile (how much water is needed to account for all the losses).

 

[brewprint]

Not to troll your thread but I have a question about boil volume.

Is it really that important to be concerned with having a full 5 gallons at the end of the boil?

With extract I end up with around 3.5 gallons and then just top off with the tap water. Why couldn't that be done with BIAB?

 

[adiochiro3]

With extract I end up with around 3.5 gallons and then just top off with the tap water. Why couldn't that be done with BIAB?

It can!

 

[brewprint]

It can!

I figured it was no different but it seems everyone is very focused on being at exactly 5 gallons when the boil is finished.

I realize that this is probably ideal but it would take more time and more propane to do this. I'm all about saving time and money.

 

[Yooper]

I figured it was no different but it seems everyone is very focused on being at exactly 5 gallons when the boil is finished.

I realize that this is probably ideal but it would take more time and more propane to do this. I'm all about saving time and money.

The only issue is that you'd need more grain since you're going to have a lower efficiency with topping up with water. It's unlike extract that way. Also, the hops utilization will suffer, with topping up with water, so more hops should be used in the smaller boil.

There are those who make a "bigger" beer, with a higher OG and more hops, just for topping up but it's not as common as starting with the desired boil volume and then ending up with the desired volume and OG.

I don't think it would save time, or money. You'd need more hops and grain to make up for the lowered efficiency, so that would be a wash. Also, it wouldn't take less time as mashing takes the same amount of time whether you're mashing 1 pound of grain or 25 pounds of grain.

 

[brewprint]

If you use the same amount of grains with say 4 gallons as with 5 for mashing how could it be any different? That makes no logical sense to me.

The reason that time would be saved is because it takes a lot less time to boil 3 gallons compared to 5.

 

[Yooper]

If you use the same amount of grains with say 4 gallons as with 5 for mashing how could it be any different? That makes no logical sense to me.

The reason that time would be saved is because it takes a lot less time to boil 3 gallons compared to 5.

When you BIAB, you mash with the full volume of liquid, doing a no sparge. If you are mashing with only 4 gallons, and not doing a sparge, you are leaving behind much of the sugar. A typical all-grain for a 5 gallon batch will use 8.5 gallons of water- and not 4 gallons.

No-sparging works when you use more water (which "holds" more sugar). If you limit the water in the mash, say like traditional mashing, then you sparge for the rest of the volume, that will maximize your efficiency.

By leaving much of the sugar behind, and topping up with water instead of sparging, you are lowering your efficiency remarkably.

 

[Gavin C]

Not to troll your thread but I have a question about boil volume.

Is it really that important to be concerned with having a full 5 gallons at the end of the boil?

With extract I end up with around 3.5 gallons and then just top off with the tap water. Why couldn't that be done with BIAB?

It can!

The only issue is that you'd need more grain since you're going to have a lower efficiency with topping up with water. It's unlike extract that way. Also, the hops utilization will suffer, with topping up with water, so more hops should be used in the smaller boil.

There are those who make a "bigger" beer, with a higher OG and more hops, just for topping up but it's not as common as starting with the desired boil volume and then ending up with the desired volume and OG.

I don't think it would save time, or money. You'd need more hops and grain to make up for the lowered efficiency, so that would be a wash. Also, it wouldn't take less time as mashing takes the same amount of time whether you're mashing 1 pound of grain or 25 pounds of grain.

Aside from the efficiency and hop issues to which Yooper has already alluded, does no one else share my view, in that topping up largely negates the rationale to, and challenges of all-grain brewing. If one's system does not allow 5 gallon batches just do smaller ones that it can accommodate. This will allow refinement of one's process to repeatedly achieve a target volume of wort at a target specific gravity. If topping up to reduce costs or time why not just stick with methods that are less demanding of accurate measures of volume, weight and efficiency. My view is that partial mashes or extract with steeping grains would be preferable to topping up the wort from an all-grain process. That was what I was doing prior to going all-grain.

I really don't follow the reasoning behind topping up an all-grain recipe.

 

[brewprint]

When you BIAB, you mash with the full volume of liquid, doing a no sparge. If you are mashing with only 4 gallons, and not doing a sparge, you are leaving behind much of the sugar. A typical all-grain for a 5 gallon batch will use 8.5 gallons of water- and not 4 gallons.

No-sparging works when you use more water (which "holds" more sugar). If you limit the water in the mash, say like traditional mashing, then you sparge for the rest of the volume, that will maximize your efficiency.

By leaving much of the sugar behind, and topping up with water instead of sparging, you are lowering your efficiency remarkably.

This makes sense. I didn't realize that the water can only hold so much sugar. I just figured that regardless of how much water there is that the sugar would still escape from the grain.

 

[chickypad]

Aside from the efficiency and hop issues to which Yooper has already alluded, does no one else share my view, in that topping up largely negates the rationale to, and challenges of all-grain brewing. If one's system does not allow 5 gallon batches just do smaller ones that it can accommodate. This will allow refinement of one's process to repeatedly achieve a target volume of wort at a target specific gravity. If topping up to reduce costs or time why not just stick with methods that are less demanding of accurate measures of volume, weight and efficiency. My view is that partial mashes or extract with steeping grains would be preferable to topping up the wort from an all-grain process. That was what I was doing prior to going all-grain.

I really don't follow the reasoning behind topping up an all-grain recipe.

I don't see a reason to take such a strict view. My usual batch sizes are 10gal on the outdoor system or 3 gal stovetop batches. There are times though when I would like 5 gal of a recipe - often my session beers - so I brew on the 3 gal system then top off to 5 gal in the fermenter (for example make a 1.080 concentrated wort and top off to get a 1.048 beer). I can't tell a difference in quality brewing the same beer regular strength, at least on the recipes I choose for this. It wouldn't work for a very bitter beer, and I max out around 1.055 or so on my system, but I don't see why this is any less preferable to a partial mash. Aren't there professional breweries who do this routinely?

 

[adiochiro3]

Aside from the efficiency and hop issues to which Yooper has already alluded, does no one else share my view, in that topping up largely negates the rationale to, and challenges of all-grain brewing...

...I really don't follow the reasoning behind topping up an all-grain recipe.

First, expected and real world outcomes do not always match (your mileage/efficiency may vary). Often, volumes are not correct after the mash. Boiling down to the correct volume is a common practice for AGers. It that cheating because they mis-caluclated? Sometimes grains keep a bit more water than expected or calculated resulting in an over-shot gravity. If I "filter" my water through my grain bag and call it a "sparge" would you be OK with that? (Yes, I know I'll pull a bit more sugar if I do that.)

Second, if I calculate for a certain volume, then my hop utilization should be pretty close for that volume and possibly would be over-hopped if my volume is too low (unless there is something I'm missing here). I haven't noticed a problem, but I don't brew super hoppy beers either. I would not be surprised to find that topping up can screw with some of those beer styles.

Third, one "rationale" for AG brewing is saving money: mission accomplished on that count. My "challenge" is to make good beer; hitting my numbers spot-on is cool, but I'm happy with a quality product that may or may not be "perfect" according to some recipe. I know these things are important to others, to whom I say "Go for it, if that makes you happy!"

Finally, I'm satisfied with my process and product (and so it my wife), so all is good.

That is my "reasoning," anyway. I'll top up an AG batch if I think I need to (rarely more than 10%, though -- so I'm never too far off).

 

[adiochiro3]

i don't see a reason to take such a strict view. My usual batch sizes are 10gal on the outdoor system or 3 gal stovetop batches. There are times though when i would like 5 gal of a recipe - often my session beers - so i brew on the 3 gal system then top off to 5 gal in the fermenter (for example make a 1.080 concentrated wort and top off to get a 1.048 beer). I can't tell a difference in quality brewing the same beer regular strength, at least on the recipes i choose for this. it wouldn't work for a very bitter beer, and i max out around 1.055 or so on my system, but i don't see why this is any less preferable to a partial mash. Aren't there professional breweries who do this routinely?

^+1^

 

[Gavin C]

I don't see a reason to take such a strict view. My usual batch sizes are 10gal on the outdoor system or 3 gal stovetop batches. There are times though when I would like 5 gal of a recipe - often my session beers - so I brew on the 3 gal system then top off to 5 gal in the fermenter (for example make a 1.080 concentrated wort and top off to get a 1.048 beer). I can't tell a difference in quality brewing the same beer regular strength, at least on the recipes I choose for this. It wouldn't work for a very bitter beer, and I max out around 1.055 or so on my system, but I don't see why this is any less preferable to a partial mash. Aren't there professional breweries who do this routinely?

First, expected and real world outcomes do not always match (your mileage/efficiency may vary). Often, volumes are not correct after the mash. Boiling down to the correct volume is a common practice for AGers. It that cheating because they mis-caluclated? Sometimes grains keep a bit more water than expected or calculated resulting in an over-shot gravity. If I "filter" my water through my grain bag and call it a "sparge" would you be OK with that? (Yes, I know I'll pull a bit more sugar if I do that.)

Second, if I calculate for a certain volume, then my hop utilization should be pretty close for that volume and possibly would be over-hopped if my volume is too low (unless there is something I'm missing here). I haven't noticed a problem, but I don't brew super hoppy beers either. I would not be surprised to find that topping up can screw with some of those beer styles.

Third, one "rationale" for AG brewing is saving money: mission accomplished on that count. My "challenge" is to make good beer; hitting my numbers spot-on is cool, but I'm happy with a quality product that may or may not be "perfect" according to some recipe. I know these things are important to others, to whom I say "Go for it, if that makes you happy!"

Finally, I'm satisfied with my process and product (and so it my wife), so all is good.

That is my "reasoning," anyway. I'll top up an AG batch if I think I need to (rarely more than 10%, though -- so I'm never too far off).

Thank you for clarification of your rationale. It seems from your post that you (James) top up for corrective measures. In this instance your rationale is a corrective top-up rather than an elective one planned from the outset. Would I be correct in this assessment?

I care not a jot as to the quality of your brew or how you formulate it. I assure you I am "OK" with whatever you or someone else decides to do with their home-brewing techniques. My posts' intent was not to stir rancor, merely debate. If my tone was ill thought out, I apologize. I do not perceive my view as being strict, but more inline with an all-grain recipe's objective. I read posts to learn and explore others' methods and thought processes. I like to question things. That is what I was doing here.

I began all grain with BIAB to gain better control of the entire process from grain to glass. I enjoy being meticulous in my measures of weight, volume and temperature and get to geek out more this way. I believe an all-grain brew-plan with an elective top-up of a non-predermined volume of water at the end of the boil would likely offset much of this control.

 

[adiochiro3]

Thank you for clarification of your rationale. It seems from your post that you (James) top up for corrective measures. In this instance your rationale is a corrective top-up rather than an elective one planned from the outset. Would I be correct in this assessment?

I care not a jot as to the quality of your brew or how you formulate it. I assure you I am "OK" with whatever you or someone else decides to do with their home-brewing techniques. My posts' intent was not to stir rancor, merely debate. If my tone was ill thought out, I apologize. I do not perceive my view as being strict, but more inline with an all-grain recipe's objective. I read posts to learn and explore others' methods and thought processes. I like to question things. That is what I was doing here.

I began all grain with BIAB to gain better control of the entire process from grain to glass. I enjoy being meticulous in my measures of weight, volume and temperature and get to geek out more this way. I believe an all-grain brew-plan with an elective top-up of a non-predermined volume of water at the end of the boil would likely offset much of this control.

1. You are correct; however, I do not think a planned top-up is incorrect or bad form either as long as the calculations for efficiency and hop utilization are correct.
2. I NEVER assume tone in the written word. Seen too many problems with such assumptions. No offense was taken on my side -- that's why I put the cheesy smily face in the post! I was just tossing my experience into the mix and elaborating on my earlier, extremely short, reply.
3. I agree: a random volume of top-up water is a bit too "by-the-seat-of-the-pants" for even me!

It's all good! I'm here to learn as much as the next guy or gal. Cheers!