Best Method: Steeping vs Partial Mash vs BIAB?

[J2W2]

Hi,

I've been extracting brewing for four years now, using various kits. For my next beer, I'm going to try my first clone recipe - for Odell's 90 Shilling. The recipe I have is all grain, with a partial mash option.

I brew 5-gallon batches in a 10-gallon Blichmann BoilerMaker, and I've always steeped my specialty grains in a 8"x10" nylon bag. The 90 Shilling partial mash recipe calls for 6lb DME and a little over 3lbs of specialty grains, which is considerably more grain than the kits I've used have contained.

I've been reading up on partial mash and Boil-in-a-Bag (BIAB), but I'm not entirely clear on the benefits and drawbacks of each. I know that steeping in a smaller volume of water may not extract all of the color, sugar, etc., but I believe from what I've read that steeping in a full volume (6.5-7 gallons) doesn't have that issue.

The nylon bag I've used in the past is only 8"x10", which may not even hold 3lbs of grain, and if it does, it will be pretty packed. I've got another nylon bag that is 10"x20", which would provide a lot more room for the grain.

When I steep my grains, I normally heat my full volume to 165 degrees, then turn off the burner and steep for 30-minutes (or whatever the recipe calls for), bouncing the bag around in the water every five minutes or so. That amount of water holds heat pretty well, so it might only drop to 160 degrees or so after 30-minutes). I have never tried rinsing the grain bag before, and I was told in this forum that for a full volume that really doesn't provide any benefit. I did pick up a large strainer for my last beer, so I can put the grain bag over my pot and let it fully drain before I dump it.

I also picked up a couple of the 5-gallon paint strainer bags from Home Depot yesterday. One of those will fit over my kettle (just barely) and ends a little ways from the bottom of the pot. I did notice that the weave on those bags is more open than my nylon bags, meaning more particles would probably escape into my wort. The package has two bags in it, so I could use both to try and get less particles in the wort.

I've read articles on partial mashing, using everything from a second, smaller pot to mash in, to getting a 2-gallon thermos and mashing in that. I really don't want to take on the extra steps at this point, unless it really provides a benefit over steeping or BIAB.

So, what's your advice for the 90 Shilling clone? Is it sufficient to just steep the grains (probably in the 10"x20" bag) like I normally do? Would I be better off to try using one (or two) of the paint strainer bags for the BIAB method? Or does the partial mash method provide so much benefit that I should give that a try?

Thanks for your help!

 

[Gavin C]

BIAB = Brew in a bag

The grains never get boiled (unless your doing a decoction)

 

[porterpounder]

Steeping like you have done all depends on what the grains are. If they are crystal or roasted grains then go ahead and steep as normal in a larger bag to allow some liquidity around the meal. If there are base grains in the mix you're going to have to steep at a lower temp (going for 148ish-154ish) so the starches can convert to sugars as the higher temp will affect the ability of the enzymes to work/exist.

There is really no difference between steeping and biab. There are plenty of calculators on line that you can use to hit your mash temp for the 3 lbs of grain. When doing small grain starter wort I steep pale malt (in a strainer bag) in a 2 or 4 gallon pot wrapped in a comforter for 30 mins. Temp stays solid and it converts every time. So essentially if i then added extract it's just a BIAB partial mash.

It's all about what grains need what method really.

 

[McKnuckle]

The difference between steeping and mashing is, in fact, minimal. Steeping just implies that the majority of your fermentables are not coming from grain; they are coming from extract or other types of sugar. Those sugars don't have to be treated like grain; they are simply dissolved in hot water. The smaller amount of fermentables - from the specialty grain in the recipe - provide color, flavor, and character. They are steeped in hot water.

Mashing is steeping with more control and discipline, and it involves the whole load of fermentables - you'll have minimal fermentables, if any, that are NOT grain. You need to hit a precise temperature, and you need to do it for a longer period of time. Otherwise, it's more or less the same process.

BIAB is just mashing and boiling in the same vessel with (usually) all of your water, and all of your grain in a bag (for the mash part, removed during boil). BIAB rocks. It's all grain brewing made simple, and just as effective.

 

[Jawbox0]

At this point, you have the capacity to do any of those three with your current setup, you just need to decide which direction you want to go.

The main thing about Brew in a Bag or Partial Mash to a lesser extend is that you really want to maintain that mash temperature within a degree or two through the process. Steeping is a lot more forgiving since you aren't relying on the process for more than a couple points of gravity.

Step 1: Get full water volume (~7-8g) to temperature (~150F)
Step 2: Steep - Add only specialty grains to bag and maintain temp for ~20 minutes
Partial - Add specialty + some base malt to bag and maintain temp for ~60
BiaB - Add all grains to bag and maintain temp for ~60 minutes
Step 3: Drain bag, boil, hop, cool, ferment

 

[J2W2]

The all-grain version of the recipe calls for: 10lb 2-Row Malt, 1.0lb Munich Malt, 0.5lb Caramel/Crystal 20L Malt, 0.5lb Caramel/Crystal 80L Malt, 0.5lb Carapils Malt, 0.5lb Wheat Malt and 0.125lb Chocolate Malt. the partial mash option says to substitute the 10lb of 2-Row with 7.5lb LME or 6lb DME (which I'm going with). Steep the specialty grains (their words) between 150 to 170 for 20 minutes, then add the DME and boil for 90 minutes.

One of the big reasons for this question is that I'm using BeerSmith 2 for the first time on this recipe. After entering all the specifics, it shows an OG of 1.048, a FG of 1.016 and an ABV of 4.1%, if I select Extract as the type. If I change that to Partial Mash, OG goes to 1.068 and ABV goes to 5.9%, which match the specs on the recipe.

So, I'm wondering if the extract method, which I assume includes steeping, is that much less efficient than BIAB or partial mashing, or why the software has such a variance between the two? I'm hoping to hit the higher OG and ABV.

Thanks again!

 

[unionrdr]

When I substitute a like extract for some of the base malt, as in this case, I usually sub 6lbs of DME & mash the remaining 4 pounds out of the 10 with the other grains. Base malts must be mashed, & you typically use 1.25 to 1.5 quarts of water per pound of grain. In steeping, the amount of water doesnt matter. Mashing is usually between 147-ish F & 155F for 60 minutes versus 20 or 30 minutes for steeping. I like to dunk sparge after draining the grain bag in another kettle so I can stir the grains & let'em sit in the 170F sparge water 10 minutes. Then drain & add that to the main mash wort & boil.

 

[Psylocide]

BIAB all day, every day. Overnight mash if you're pressed for time.

 

[McKnuckle]

So, I'm wondering if the extract method, which I assume includes steeping, is that much less efficient than BIAB or partial mashing

When you select "extract," does that mean you are not including any of the other grains? I'm trying to figure this out. Partial mash or steeping are equivalent to each other, more or less. They are specialty grains soaked in hot water plus liquid/dry extract.

[Edit: The below is wrong; I made a math error and calculated the DME @ 5 lbs, then corrected the value to 6 in this post but left the math unchanged.]

The only other significant thing I can see is that, when I enter the fermentables into my calculator, 10 lbs of 2-row malt has a higher PPG than 6 lbs of DME by quite a bit - about 27% more:

10 lbs 2-row @ 75% efficiency = 42.56 gravity pts
6 lbs Light DME @ 100% efficiency = 33.60 gravity puts [<--- should be 6 lbs and 40.32]

That's gonna make a difference in the gravity estimate for sure. PPG (Points per Pound per Gallon) is a measure of how much sugar a fermentable contributes to the wort.

 

[RM-MN]

I've been reading up on partial mash and Boil-in-a-Bag (BIAB), but I'm not entirely clear on the benefits and drawbacks of each. I know that steeping in a smaller volume of water may not extract all of the color, sugar, etc., but I believe from what I've read that steeping in a full volume (6.5-7 gallons) doesn't have that issue.

Some of the benefits of partial mash and especially BIAB is more control of the beer produced, lower cost of grains vs extract, and probably a lighter color to your beer, closer to what the original was. The drawbacks include needing to reach a specific temperature for mashing where a few degrees makes a huge difference in the final gravity which changes the flavor and mouthfeel. You will need better milling of the grain than you would for steeping too. You have to account for the efficiency of your sugar extraction too.

I enjoy the challlenge of getting my water to the precise temperature so I get the mix of fermenabilty I want. I like to purchase my grains at a substantial discount over the cost of extract and being able to mill the grains my way and brew on a moments notice.

 

[doug293cz]

When you select "extract," does that mean you are not including any of the other grains? I'm trying to figure this out. Partial mash or steeping are equivalent to each other, more or less. They are specialty grains soaked in hot water plus liquid/dry extract.

The only other significant thing I can see is that, when I enter the fermentables into my calculator, 10 lbs of 2-row malt has a higher PPG than 6 lbs of DME by quite a bit - about 50% more:

10 lbs 2-row @ 75% efficiency = 42.56 PPG
6 lbs Light DME @ 100% efficiency = 33.60 PPG

That's gonna make a difference in the gravity estimate for sure. PPG (Points per Pound per Gallon) is a measure of how much sugar a fermentable contributes to the wort.

I think your math is a little off:

2-row has a potential of 1.037 (37 points-gal/lb)
Light DME has a potential of 1.044 (44 points-gal/lb)

so, 6 lbs of DME provides 6 * 44 = 264 total gravity points
10 lbs of 2- row provides 10 * 37 = 370 total gravity points @ 100% mash efficiency

if we assume 71.35% mash efficiency, then
10 lbs of 2-row yields 370 * 0.7135 = 263.995 total points to BK
(I cheated a little on the 71.35% efficiency, by pre-calculating the efficiency required to make 10 lbs of 2-row equivalent to 6 lbs of DME.)​

So, the recipe appears to be converted correctly from AG to extract. For a 5.5 gal (end of boil) batch the [email protected]% or DME should both produce an OG of 1.048 without the other grains. It appears BeerSmith is using 100% eff assumption for the AG version for some reason. This may be the result of not changing the mash type when changing from DME to AG.
Brew on

 

[McKnuckle]

I think your math is a little off:

No, my math is right, but I did bugger it up:

I used 5 lbs DME @ 42 PPG and you correctly used 6 lbs DME @ 44.
I used a 2-row with 38 PPG and you used one with 37.

Whoops! You're right... when corrected, they do even out.

 

[J2W2]

When you select "extract," does that mean you are not including any of the other grains? I'm trying to figure this out. Partial mash or steeping are equivalent to each other, more or less. They are specialty grains soaked in hot water plus liquid/dry extract.

No, I have entered everything into a recipe in BeerSmith 2 (6lb DME, the 3lb specialty grains, hops, yeast, everything). Near the top, the software has a dropdown for Type. Extract shows the 1.048 OG and 4.1% ABV, Partial Mash has 1.068 OG and 5.9% ABV, while All Grain has 1.068 OG and 6.3% ABV (not even sure how it's calculating that with the DME).

The really bizarre thing is, if I remove the 3lb of specialty grains from the recipe, leaving just the 6lb DME, hops and yeast, it is still calculating 1.052 OG and 4.6% ABV for the Partial Mash option. Extract drops to 1.045 OG and 3.9% ABV. That tells me that the Extract calculation is figuring almost no gain from the specialty grains, while the Partial Mash option does.

The only other significant thing I can see is that, when I enter the fermentables into my calculator, 10 lbs of 2-row malt has a higher PPG than 6 lbs of DME by quite a bit - about 27% more:

10 lbs 2-row @ 75% efficiency = 42.56 PPG
6 lbs Light DME @ 100% efficiency = 33.60 PPG

I don't see a PPG value in BeerSmith 2, but I might not know where to look. It does indicate that 10lb of Pale Malt 2-Row, with a yield of 79%, has a potential OG of 1.036. While 6lb of DME, with a yield of 97%, has a potential OG of 1.044. So if I understand it correctly, it would indicate that using DME should result in a slightly higher OG and ABV. Again, this is my first attempt at using this software.

 

[McKnuckle]

See my corrected post above; I put in 5 lbs of DME instead of 6 by mistake, and then edited my post but did not edit my math.

Sorry. The two are more or less equivalent (6 lbs DME and 10 lbs 2-row).

 

[doug293cz]

I don't see a PPG value in BeerSmith 2, but I might not know where to look. It does indicate that 10lb of Pale Malt 2-Row, with a yield of 79%, has a potential OG of 1.036. While 6lb of DME, with a yield of 97%, has a potential OG of 1.044. So if I understand it correctly, it would indicate that using DME should result in a slightly higher OG and ABV. Again, this is my first attempt at using this software.

From the menu window on the left in BS, open the "Ingredients -> Grain" window. You should see a column labeled "Potential". This is the SG that could be obtained with 1 lb of grain/DME/LME in 1 gal of wort @ 100% efficiency. For calculation you use gravity points/lb, where points/lb = (Potential SG - 1)*1000, so a potential of 1.036 SG is 36 points/lb. To know what SG you have in the BK you calculate the points contributed by each grain, sum all the individual grain points and divide by the total wort volume. The SG in the BK is then 1 + (wort points/gal / 1000.) The total point contribution of each grain is:

lbs_of_grain * points/lb * mash_efficiency​

Brew on

 

[J2W2]

Thanks for all the advice. I think I'll just steep the grains in the larger nylon bag this time and see how it goes. Since I have a specific OG to shoot for (the kits often only specify a range), I should have a pretty good idea how well I do. And since we can get 90 Shilling locally, I'll be able to compare my clone to the real thing for the ultimate test!

Thanks again!