Best Method - Avoiding Oxygen While Transferring?

[jbaysurfer]

In my case, oxidation flavors showed up within 48 hours. If I am not extremely careful with racking and purging, the tiny bit of oxygen left in the headspace is enough to noticeably oxidize the beer.

I've also picked up the flavor in a couple of commercial beers too. I bought a sixer of Deschutes Fresh-squeezed IPA and all of them were oxidized pretty bad.

The flavor is really hard to describe for me. I wouldn't pick wet cardboard, but I have always been at a loss for adjectives for it.

Unless you're kegging it and shaking it with ambient air in the headspace, I don't think the science supports this as even possible. it takes considerable O2 to oxidize beer that quickly. Much more then you could introduce with even sloppy racking technique.

I acknowledge, and even strongly support the notion that Oxidation is a very relevant risk in homebrew but I don't think it can do that much damage that quickly under anything but the most extreme circumstances.

Knowing that Revvy may command a little more credibility then me (for some posters) I took the liberty of digging up an old post from him.

It takes a lot of splashing to do any damage, someone on basic brewing years ago, (Palmer, or Chris Colby of BYO) said that in order to truly provide enough O2 to oxydize our beers it would take pumping an entire one of our red oxygen bottle/airstones into our beer AFTER fermentation is complete.

Most of the splashing intentional or accidental that we do in the course of our brewing will not harm it...

That doesn't mean you want to dump your carboy into the bottling bucket, or do other careless things. You still want to be gentle when moving your beer from vessel to vessel.

BUT it does mean that if we spalsh, or have to use our autosiphon to pump our beer is something goes wrong, that we don't need to panic about it.

I've had all sorts of problems, like bottling a blond ale with peaches in it,that kept jamming the bottling wand and auto siphon, and the beer's still turned out just fine.

And beside Oxygenation damage isn't immediate anyway, most of us would have our beer drunk long before it would happen.
I had some major f-ups with bottling on occasion and still haven't oxydized a batch.

I would just rdwhahb while you read this thread written just for you...

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/wh...where-your-beer-still-turned-out-great-96780/

 

[TAK]

Unless you're kegging it and shaking it with ambient air in the headspace, I don't think the science supports this as even possible. it takes considerable O2 to oxidize beer that quickly. Much more then you could introduce with even sloppy racking technique.

I acknowledge, and even strongly support the notion that Oxidation is a very relevant risk in homebrew but I don't think it can do that much damage that quickly under anything but the most extreme circumstances.

Knowing that Revvy may command a little more credibility then me (for some posters) I took the liberty of digging up an old post from him.

I think the point that being overlooked here is when the oxidation occurs.

I completely agree that you are not at abundant risk of oxidization during racking activity. Where the significant risk comes into play is during force-carbing.

If there's O2 in the headspace once you start force-carbing, then you're also "force-oxidizing."

 

[jbaysurfer]

I think the point that being overlooked here is when the oxidation occurs.

I completely agree that you are not at abundant risk of oxidization during racking activity. Where the significant risk comes into play is during force-carbing.

If there's O2 in the headspace once you start force-carbing, then you're also "force-oxidizing."

You're last sentence is obviously true. But I wouldn't call it "significant risk" unless something really stupid is being done. It's as simple as flushing it multiple times. Or of course...using your method.

In practice, I don't believe anyone who's not consciously trying (shake carbonating with room air or pure O2 perhaps?) is going to see oxygenation effects in 48 hours.

 

[LovesIPA]

In practice, I don't believe anyone who's not consciously trying (shake carbonating with room air or pure O2 perhaps?) is going to see oxygenation effects in 48 hours.

I guess I must be making it up then.

 

[AnOldUR]

I guess I must be making it up then.

Have you entered these beers into BJCP competitions and had them hit for being oxidized.

Personally, I've never fully purged as you suggest. I hit it with 30psi, shut off the gas, release all the gas in the head space. Repeat 4-5 times. Using this method, I've entered many, many BJCP competitions and never once has a judge mentioned oxidized as a flaw. These are bottled from keg using a modified BMBF ranging from fresh IPA's to aged Old Ales.

 

[LovesIPA]

Have you entered these beers into BJCP competitions and had them hit for being oxidized.

Personally, I've never fully purged as you suggest. I hit it with 30psi, shut off the gas, release all the gas in the head space. Repeat 4-5 times. Using this method, I've entered many, many BJCP competitions and never once has a judge mentioned oxidized as a flaw. These are bottled from keg using a modified BMBF ranging from fresh IPA's to aged Old Ales.

I haven't entered a competition yet.

I can't quite figure out why the method you describe works for you but not for me. What I do know is that after several frustrating months, I am back to making great beer. I've brewed kegged two batches now with the method I described earlier and both of them came out tasting fantastic without a hint of oxidation - with one exception.

The first batch actually got slightly oxidized about half way through the keg. I ran out of CO2 and when I changed the cylinder I didn't flush the lines. Swapping the cylinders introduced enough air to oxidize the beer. Within 24 hours of swapping, I picked up the now very familiar oxidation flavor. It wasn't very strong but I could tell it was there.

In before jbaysurfer tells me it's not possible either and I'm probably making this up too.

 

[jbaysurfer]

In before jbaysurfer tells me it's not possible either and I'm probably making this up too.

Nobody said this but you. Twice. No thanks on the hostility. I'm here to talk beer.

 

[jbaysurfer]

Have you entered these beers into BJCP competitions and had them hit for being oxidized.

Personally, I've never fully purged as you suggest. I hit it with 30psi, shut off the gas, release all the gas in the head space. Repeat 4-5 times. Using this method, I've entered many, many BJCP competitions and never once has a judge mentioned oxidized as a flaw. These are bottled from keg using a modified BMBF ranging from fresh IPA's to aged Old Ales.

This is pretty much what I do, and my contest results also back it up. That said, when I judged NHC in Sac this year, we did get some Oxidized (at various levels) beers, but usually it's in styles that have aged for a long time. Oxidation requires two variables, the introduction of O2 and time....

 

[BreezyBrew]

The first batch actually got slightly oxidized about half way through the keg. I ran out of CO2 and when I changed the cylinder I didn't flush the lines. Swapping the cylinders introduced enough air to oxidize the beer. Within 24 hours of swapping, I picked up the now very familiar oxidation flavor. It wasn't very strong but I could tell it was there.

Weren't you the person that was getting off flavors in every single beer and wouldn't have anyone else taste it to see what it was?

I'm pretty sure... That thread got deleted because it got out of hand. Now your dominating the topic in this thread. You're angering other people so any credibility you have goes out the window. Another troll another day...

 

[orangehero]

It's possible he's just hypersensitive to whatever those flavor compounds are. I don't doubt that they are present, but it could be that they are usually at levels that the vast majority of people are unable to detect in kegged homebrew following reasonable purging practices.

According to Eric Warner in German Wheat Beer, DO levels are critical for filtered commercial beer while bottle conditioning has a protective effect and such stringent control is not required. I'm not sure if that's specifically due to refermentation or if simply live dormant yeast can scavenge oxygen and provide protection as well.

 

[day_trippr]

^That could be.

I don't know where that Revvy quote came from - or whether his recollections about hearing that oxygenating the living crap out of a post-fermented batch would not hurt it - but I'm calling Shenanigans on that, period. It's complete BS and if any knucklehead would be even remotely so callous with their beer they deserve the outcome.

The biggies measure oxygen in packaging in the MICROLITERS fer chrissakes...

Cheers! (and Harrumph! )

 

[jbaysurfer]

^That could be.

I don't know where that Revvy quote came from - or whether his recollections about hearing that oxygenating the living crap out of a post-fermented batch would not hurt it - but I'm calling Shenanigans on that, period. It's complete BS and if any knucklehead would be even remotely so callous with their beer they deserve the outcome.

The biggies measure oxygen in packaging in the MICROLITERS fer chrissakes...

Cheers! (and Harrumph! )

Truthfully, I almost edited that part out because I feel the same way. But then I thought if I was going to quote Revvy, I should just quote him in it's entirety. I think that particular quote represents the corollary to the idea that some minor introduction of oxygen can be tasted in 48 hours.

There were many people on that thread (referenced) who offered to taste his beer, including myself and Breezy, and I was going to be judging NHC in his hometown no less...but he chose not to take advantage of that. I have learned so much about off flavors and their presentations in judging dozens of contests at this point that I realize that if you don't have any formal training, it's more then possible, it's PROBABLE that you'll misidentify a few off flavors from time to time. I don't doubt he's tasting something after 48 hours. It's whether it's actually oxidation that I'm skeptical about.

I have no dog in the hunt, just education, so I'm going to check with a BJCP Grandmaster Level V judge (I know it's just a ranking, but it's the highest ranking obtainable) I know and see what he thinks. If LoveIPA is truly tasting oxidation that quickly from minor introductions of O2, I'll have learned something new. Win win.

 

[Newsman]

Also, I disagree with the statement earlier that gases will never stratify. CO2 is MUCH heavier than O2, so it's going to sink to the bottom and any CO2 that is introduced is going to push the O2 out, which is why we aren't generally concerned about putting our wort into a fermenter with air in it. (Note: I realize there will be SOME mixing, but for the most part, the CO2 is going to sink and the O2 is going to rise.) In fact, there are all these threads about "help... my airlock isn't bubbling" or "my lid blew off" and the more experienced folks say "don't worry... the CO2 blanket will keep you from having much of anything get into your beer." I mean, think about it... if you purge your keg a few times, there's going to be darn little O2 left in the keg and almost certainly not enough to worry about.

 

[Scele]

Oh damn, I just put my auto-siphon into primary, then siphon beer to secondary, put on lid, the end.

 

[orangehero]

the more experienced folks say "don't worry... the CO2 blanket will keep you from having much of anything get into your beer."

Those people don't know what they're talking about. Although in some cases it is useful to think of gases as liquids, the fact is they also behave quite differently.

 

[Newsman]

Those people don't know what they're talking about. Although in some cases it is useful to think of gases as liquids, the fact is they also behave quite differently.

Except CO2 is heavier than oxygen, which is why you could suffocate if you lean into a keezer full of CO2 with the lid open. There's plenty of oxygen in the air around the keezer, but the density of the CO2 is such that it collects in the keezer. Have you ever seen CO2 "fog" from dry ice that is dropped into water? Notice how it rises up like smoke? No? That's because it doesn't. It's HEAVIER than air. Some gases are lighter than air (Helium, Hydrogen, etc) and others are heavier than air. Yes, there's some mixing, but for the most part, it stratifies.

 

[orangehero]

Yes, there's some mixing, but for the most part, it stratifies.

No, it doesn't. Otherwise it wouldn't be safe to go into your basement.

Let's take an example of liquids to illustrate. You can do this experiment at home. Drop some food coloring, which is "heavier than water", into a glass of water, and watch how quickly it will disperse, especially if you give it even the slightest agitation. This is similar to what happens with gases, except much more rapidly. Think of space as the solvent, and CO2 as the solute.

This is a good thread that covers many of the concepts and techniques that have been discussed here:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/s...ments-like-fermentors-kegs-431015/index2.html

 

[Newsman]

Orangehero -- have you ever seen dry ice put into a bucket of water? The "fog" doesn't behave like steam, which goes up into the air. It crawls along the ground. Yes there is some mixing of the air (which is mostly N2, which is inert, and only 20% O2) with the CO2, but if you put a higher pressure of CO2 into your keg, and pull the PRV, you will be evacuating the majority of the air and what little air there is left will be of minimal significance. CO2, DOES form a layer if there is not a breeze. Yes, it will eventually mix with the air if it's not continually refreshed, except in a closed container like a keg or a carboy, you can purge 99% of the air and O2 out of those with CO2.
The reason it's safe to go into your basement is that there is air circulating which encourages mixing of gases.

 

[orangehero]

Orangehero -- have you ever seen dry ice put into a bucket of water? The "fog" doesn't behave like steam, which goes up into the air. It crawls along the ground.

That fog is water vapor, not CO2, and sinks because of low temperature (making it more dense).

 

[Newsman]

OK... let me put it another way... why are we so concerned about Carbon Monxide build-up in a closed space if it's just going to mix anyway? The point is that while gases WILL mix, they DO not instantaneously mix. There is a certain amount of stratification.

 

[day_trippr]

Any stratification is temporary, thankfully, otherwise our ancestors would have never made it. Kinetic gas theory assures us of that.

If you make decisions based on the mythical "CO2 Blanket", the outcome is all on you...

Cheers!

 

[day_trippr]

I've been asked a few times for the part numbers of the fittings I used to hook keg posts to various plumbing bits, such as the gas post connected to the carboy cap in this pic.

As I can't edit the original post any longer, I'm appending the info here.

You can get the fittings from Chicompany.net. The part that connects to the line is a 1/4" male flare to 1/4" barb. Chicompany part number is 04C03125IH for stainless steel.

The other part that connects to the post will depend on the post you have (or buy). The two most common threads for ball lock gas posts are 19/32-18 and 9/16-18; iirc the post in the picture is a Firestone which uses the 9/16-18 threading.

So you want either the 1/4" female flare to 9/16-18 post adapter or the 1/4" female flare to 19/32-18 post adapter, to match your gas post.

If you wanted to hook a liquid post to tubing, the post would most likely use either 5/8-18 or 19/32-18 threads. For the former you'd use the matching 1/4" FFL to 5/8-18 post adapter, and for the latter you'd use the 1/4" FFL to 19/32-18 post adapter.

Don't forget the nylon flare washer between the barb adapter and the post adapter. Chicompany part number 04E04291IH.

And get a hose clamp, too!

Cheers!

 

[Stealthcruiser]

Sub'd, and thanks!

 

[jbaysurfer]

Cool stuff Daytripprrrrrr! Thanks for sharing!

 

[TAK]

day_trippr,

What PSI are you using to push out of your carboy?

I just did a dry run (well, it was a wet run because I used water ), and I only got a stream swirling down my out tube, not a full siphon. Maybe though, I was just being paranoid about increasing the pressure on my carboy.

 

[day_trippr]

Never saw that last question, but for the record, the pressure is under 1 psi if I shut off the gas cock at the regulator. But as the system is "open" (by virtue of the latched-open PRV atop the keg) it never reaches that with the same valve open...

Cheers!