Berlinner weisse question

[HollisBT]

I am planning on putting together a Berliner weisse for this summer, and had a few quick questions about techniques for this brew... I am not planning on doing a sour mash, but rather fermenting the wort for about a week, then transferring it into a secondary with some lactobacillus to begin the souring. Since traditionally this is a no-boil type brew when doing a sour mash, is it really necessary to perform a boil with my wort?

Would it be possible/safe to simply go straight from the mash run (through my chiller) into a sanitized carboy? My thoughts are that this could make for a rather simple no sparge, no boil, quick brew day with a little mash hopping and simple lautering. Do I need to boil this brew or can I just mash, RDWHAHB, and let the beer happen?

 

[rorygilmore]

You don't need to boil, but from my understanding you do want to bring it up close to boiling to sanitize. Also, it's fairly common to perform a decoction mash.

I'd also consider pitching lacto sooner rather than later. In fact, I'd give it a few days head start over the regular yeast.

 

[HollisBT]

Hmmm, I will take that into consideration. Thanks for that input!

However, one afterthought that I had, what about DMS? Should I worry about not boiling off any of the DMS by skipping the boil?

 

[passedpawn]

Hmmm, I will take that into consideration. Thanks for that input!

However, one afterthought that I had, what about DMS? Should I worry about not boiling off any of the DMS by skipping the boil?

DMS is produced during the boil. It is also removed during the boil. So if you don't boil, ...

But if you're going to add your own lacto culture (which I think is a good idea) you probably should raise the temp and kill off everything. Get it above 160 for 5 minutes and you are golden.

 

[HollisBT]

So couldn't I theoretically do that with a mash out? If I mash out at 168 in my tun for about 15 minutes I should be good?

Also, what exactly is the mind-set behind pitching the lacto first? Just to let it establish itself? Should I pitch lacto and wait to see activity from it before pitching the yeast? And if that is the case, should I worry about oxygenation from mixing/swirling the wort once I pitch the yeast?

Also, since the yeast and bugs will be co-fermenting, do I need to worry about autoalysis (sp?) of any kind from being in the fermenter and on the trub for 5-6 months?

 

[passedpawn]

So couldn't I theoretically do that with a mash out? If I mash out at 168 in my tun for about 15 minutes I should be good?

Also, what exactly is the mind-set behind pitching the lacto first? Just to let it establish itself? Should I pitch lacto and wait to see activity from it before pitching the yeast? And if that is the case, should I worry about oxygenation from mixing/swirling the wort once I pitch the yeast?

Also, since the yeast and bugs will be co-fermenting, do I need to worry about autoalysis (sp?) of any kind from being in the fermenter and on the trub for 5-6 months?

Not really. You'll notice that that graph refers to "highest concentrations found in filtered beer". Your mash has an abundance of bacteria that would require a much longer period to kill to safe levels. I'm not a microbiologist so that's about the extent of my knowledge. Good luck!

 

[Fritobandito]

I boiled mine for 15 minutes. I also added the lacto 2 days before the sacc and it isn't sour at all now. Next time I'm going to do 3 or 4 days before the sacc.

 

[HokieBrewer]

I boiled mine for 15 minutes. I also added the lacto 2 days before the sacc and it isn't sour at all now. Next time I'm going to do 3 or 4 days before the sacc.

When did you brew it?

 

[passedpawn]

I boiled mine for 15 minutes. I also added the lacto 2 days before the sacc and it isn't sour at all now. Next time I'm going to do 3 or 4 days before the sacc.

I have made 2 BW batches, and this was my experience both times. I think I'm done with the style - it beat me

 

[tonyolympia]

Is it commonly understood that a Berliner Weisse must remain in primary for multiple months? I recently listened to a Basic Brewing podcast with Michael Tonsmire, and I think his beer was in primary for at least 2 months, and in this thread I'm seeing 5-6 months. Yet in Brewing Classic Styles, Jamil makes NO mention of an extended fermentation.

What's the scoop with souring? Should I brew a Berliner Weisse now if I want to drink it in the summer?

 

[Fritobandito]

I have made 2 BW batches, and this was my experience both times. I think I'm done with the style - it beat me

I remember you helping me in a thread I made about mine not being sour a while ago. Don't throw in the towel yet!

 

[Fritobandito]

When did you brew it?

Probably around 4 months ago. I'm at school, so I don't have my any of my notes with me. It stopped at 1.010, so I'm probably gonna throw some brett in shortly with some maltodextrin.

 

[Airborneguy]

I just started drinking my berliner weisse in the last week, and actually had my first commercial version yesterday.

Mine was brewed no boil, with a double decoction. I pitched a 500ml starter of lacto that I cultivated from grains, then a smack pack of Wyeast Kolsch 3 days later. I ended up with a ridiculously sour beer, WAY over the top.

Next time, I'm going to make a smaller starter of lacto and pitch it only 1 day before pitching the yeast. I still want the lacto to get a head start, but this one practically finished the race!

I left it in the primary for approximately 2 months, skimmed off the pellicle and then cold-crashed in my freezer for 3 days. If you cold-crash, expect the beer to carbonate really slow if you naturally carb. Next time, I am going to keg this beer after my cold-crash.

 

[passedpawn]

I remember you helping me in a thread I made about mine not being sour a while ago. Don't throw in the towel yet!

Thanks for the encouragement. I've got a bunch in bottles, and a single keg of it. I'll probably dump the keg, but I'll keep the bottles for a while longer - at least until summer.

Thing is, if I want a sour beer I've been very successful with flanders reds. I might as well make more of those.

 

[HollisBT]

Is it commonly understood that a Berliner Weisse must remain in primary for multiple months? I recently listened to a Basic Brewing podcast with Michael Tonsmire, and I think his beer was in primary for at least 2 months, and in this thread I'm seeing 5-6 months. Yet in Brewing Classic Styles, Jamil makes NO mention of an extended fermentation.

What's the scoop with souring? Should I brew a Berliner Weisse now if I want to drink it in the summer?

My understanding was that all bacterial work slower than yeast when it comes to eating sugars and producing their desired effects. Mi planned on giving mine several months so that I could make sure I got the effect that I wanted. I want mine to be slightly tart, but not over the top bitter, just something that will be light and refreshing on a summers day. I am planning on brewing mine either this month or early February so that it will be ready to drink by July.

I also plan on doing the same with a Saison that I want to pitch Brett and pedio on.

 

[passedpawn]

Is it commonly understood that a Berliner Weisse must remain in primary for multiple months? I recently listened to a Basic Brewing podcast with Michael Tonsmire, and I think his beer was in primary for at least 2 months, and in this thread I'm seeing 5-6 months. Yet in Brewing Classic Styles, Jamil makes NO mention of an extended fermentation.

What's the scoop with souring? Should I brew a Berliner Weisse now if I want to drink it in the summer?

Kristen England (eminent brewer) recommends just the opposite. He gets his BW into bottles within 7 days of brewing. He adds more lacto when he bottles. Then he puts the bottles away in a hot place (say, garage) for many months. He says he gets lots of sour this way.

I did it like this on my last batch (I didn't add more lacto, didn't see the point) and had the same result as when I fermented for 5 months in carboy. Oh well. One interesting thing on the 1st batch: I never got a pellicle in the carboy, but within 2 days the bottles formed pellicles in the neck.

 

[othellomcbane]

Kristen England (eminent brewer) recommends just the opposite. He gets his BW into bottles within 7 days of brewing. He adds more lacto when he bottles. Then he puts the bottles away in a hot place (say, garage) for many months. He says he gets lots of sour this way.

I did it like this on my last batch (I didn't add more lacto, didn't see the point) and had the same result as when I fermented for 5 months in carboy. Oh well. One interesting thing on the 1st batch: I never got a pellicle in the carboy, but within 2 days the bottles formed pellicles in the neck.

So why don't you have worry about bottle-bombs when you do this — does lacto never produce CO2, just acid? Making the Brett the major difference (and bottle-bomb causer) between this and other sours?

 

[HollisBT]

So what exactly is the purpose of the decoction in the mash with this style?

Also, if pitching the lacto first do you wait to see activity before adding the saccharomyces? Do you have to worry about pellicle formation and oxidation?

 

[passedpawn]

So why don't you have worry about bottle-bombs when you do this — does lacto never produce CO2, just acid? Making the Brett the major difference (and bottle-bomb causer) between this and other sours?

Good question. You do have to worry about bombs. Lacto is not homofermentive (I think that's the right term), so it does produce CO2.

I don't have a good answer for you. It's a small beer, so it's really done fermenting quickly. I put lacto in there and the beer raged just like an active sacc fermentation.

 

[weremichael]

I've had success with a 15 min boil onto a lacto starter (made with apple juice) and held at 90F for 24 hrs, let it drop to 68F, transfer and pitch a clean yeast AND some Brett and ferment for at least three months. Sour and tasty at that point. Might want to try it that way.

 

[HollisBT]

How necessary is it to hold it at 90 degrees? And what did you use to keep that temperature for 24 hours?

 

[weremichael]

I think that keeping it at a higher temp is crucial for the lacto. I cooled the beer down to 100 and then used a fermawrap inside of a fermentation chamber. If you don't have that, you could always use a heating pad.

I once tried to keep it at 90F for two days. That beer was way too sour and I had to back sweeten it in the keg.

 

[Airborneguy]

I kept mine just under 90 using a tub of water with an aquarium heater in it. I'd recently broken my 150w heater and my 75w one couldn't get it to 90. I still experienced what weremichael did. I've been drinking mine mixed with various syrups to cut the acidity.

 

[HollisBT]

So then maybe if I just wanting slightly tart, keeping it at those temps isn't as important?

 

[othellomcbane]

I think that keeping it at a higher temp is crucial for the lacto. I cooled the beer down to 100 and then used a fermawrap inside of a fermentation chamber. If you don't have that, you could always use a heating pad.

I once tried to keep it at 90F for two days. That beer was way too sour and I had to back sweeten it in the keg.

I kept mine just under 90 using a tub of water with an aquarium heater in it. I'd recently broken my 150w heater and my 75w one couldn't get it to 90. I still experienced what weremichael did. I've been drinking mine mixed with various syrups to cut the acidity.

Were these sour mashes (where you boiled afterward to kill the lacto) or did you pitch pure lacto for a few days and then pitch a regular strain on top of that and let it ferment out?

 

[Airborneguy]

I just started drinking my berliner weisse in the last week, and actually had my first commercial version yesterday.

Mine was brewed no boil, with a double decoction. I pitched a 500ml starter of lacto that I cultivated from grains, then a smack pack of Wyeast Kolsch 3 days later. I ended up with a ridiculously sour beer, WAY over the top.

Next time, I'm going to make a smaller starter of lacto and pitch it only 1 day before pitching the yeast. I still want the lacto to get a head start, but this one practically finished the race!

I left it in the primary for approximately 2 months, skimmed off the pellicle and then cold-crashed in my freezer for 3 days. If you cold-crash, expect the beer to carbonate really slow if you naturally carb. Next time, I am going to keg this beer after my cold-crash.

Here's my whole process (prior post).

 

[ArcaneXor]

I would suggest using lactobacillus brevis instead of delbrueckii, or doing the sour starter method. The Delbrueckii strains are notorious for being very slow to sour and tend to be extremely sensitive to even very low levels of hopping.

 

[mcnewcp]

Subscribed. I was just about to ask at least 3 of these questions.

 

[HollisBT]

I would suggest using lactobacillus brevis instead of delbrueckii, or doing the sour starter method. The Delbrueckii strains are notorious for being very slow to sour and tend to be extremely sensitive to even very low levels of hopping.

What exactly are the differences between the strains? Do they produce any different flavor/aroma characteristics? I have the same question about Brett, and have yet to find a solid resource to explain it.

 

[Airborneguy]

I'm fairly sure that some of the lacto strains do not produce any alcohol at all.