Batch sparging -- am I doing it wrong?

[swolfe]

I use BeerSmith for my calculations. Here's my procedure:

Add strike water to mash tun.
Add grains while stirring.
Thoroughly stir.
Mash for 60-75 minutes, stirring once or twice.
Stir.
Add sparge water (smaller amount).
Stir.
Wait 10 minutes.
Stir.
Vorlauf.
Drain wort.
Add sparge water (larger amount).
Stir.
Wait 10 minutes.
Stir.
Vorlauf.
Drain wort.

However, several posts I've read here on HBT have me thinking I may be doing this wrong -- they mention draining the mash tun BEFORE adding any sparge water. Should I be draining my mash tun before I make the first sparge water addition? I tend to get fairly low efficiency, could this be related? I assumed I was doing it correctly, because the smaller and larger sparge volumes seemed to give roughly equal volumes of runnings.

 

[bob1852]

Yes, you should drain the mash before sparging.

batch sparging is essentially rinsing the grains after you drain the first high gravity runnings from the mash.

 

[Dan]

Is your first sparge water to reach mash out temp? (168)

 

[Jubilee]

Here's what I've been doing....2 brews with no efficiency issues:

1) heat MLT with 1 gal hot water, drain/dump.
2) add strike water, add grain, stir, let sit for 60 min
3) drain
4) add appropriate amount sparge water, stir, let sit 10 min
5) drain

Easy peasy. :rockin:

 

[phenry]

I use BeerSmith for my calculations. Here's my procedure:

Add strike water to mash tun.
Add grains while stirring.
Thoroughly stir.
Mash for 60-75 minutes, stirring once or twice. <- No need to stir during the mash
Stir.
Add sparge water (smaller amount). <- Technically that would be the mash out to raise the grain bed temp. Not entirely necessary, I've never done one.
Stir.
Wait 10 minutes.
Stir.
Vorlauf. <- Start this after stirring after the mash.
Drain wort.
Add sparge water (larger amount). <- You can do a 1 or 2 part batch sparge. Some say you get better efficiency with a 2 part, which by my experience is true, but only by 1-2%. So I usually stick to 1 part for smaller beers.
Stir.
Wait 10 minutes.
Stir.
Vorlauf.
Drain wort.

However, several posts I've read here on HBT have me thinking I may be doing this wrong -- they mention draining the mash tun BEFORE adding any sparge water. Should I be draining my mash tun before I make the first sparge water addition? I tend to get fairly low efficiency, could this be related? I assumed I was doing it correctly, because the smaller and larger sparge volumes seemed to give roughly equal volumes of runnings.

And low efficiency is very easily related to grain crush. Look at that first before picking apart your mash.

 

[JuanMoore]

Yes, you should drain the wort before you start sparging. There's also no need to stir during the mash, it won't help any and will probably cause you to lose temp. Some people add a small amount of boiling water before draining to raise the grist to enzyme denaturing temps (~168F) and "lock in" the wort profile. This step is called a "mash-out", and is optional if you batch sparge. Since batch sparging takes so little time, the enzymes don't have much chance to do anything before the temp is raised above denaturing temps in the boil kettle, so IMO it's unecessary and the water is better used to increase the sparge volume. Waiting 10 min for the grain bed to settle is also optional. Stirring after waiting for the grain bed to settle defeats the whole purpose of letting the grain bed settle. If you drain right away instead of waiting for the grain bed to settle you'll have to vorlauf a little more to get it clear, but it's still quicker than waiting 10 min.

All that said, your efficiency issue is more likely from something else, like poor crush, or not stirring thoroughly enough at dough in.

Edit: and when double batch sparging it's the volumes of sparge water additions that should be close to equal, not the volumes of the sparge runnings.

 

[Homercidal]

One of these days I'm going to figure out how to make a simple animated video showing just how to perform these tasks. I think it would be easier for the very beginner to see how the process works. Just got to find a good easy-to-use software that even I can figure out.

 

[huge1s]

One of these days I'm going to figure out how to make a simple animated video showing just how to perform these tasks. I think it would be easier for the very beginner to see how the process works. Just got to find a good easy-to-use software that even I can figure out.

I believe they have this website that can help with that.... metube? thoseguystube? youtube? .... something like that.

 

[Homercidal]

I'll have to look into it again. I think something in the style of South Park would be cool and interesting.

 

[huge1s]

I'll have to look into it again. I think something in the style of South Park would be cool and interesting.

I was just pullin your chain. Animated would be cool, but I get just as much info watching a youtube video tutorial..

 

[Homercidal]

Yeah. I suppose there are some nice videos of people actually brewing, but my idea with the animation was to show what happens to the grain and water during the process. Watching one person's video doesn't usually go into what happens to the starch with the enzymes and I think that many people will see a video and assume that their system has to be similar to the system in the video.

 

[swolfe]

Is your first sparge water to reach mash out temp? (168)

I typically use 188F water for sparging. Next time, I'll go a little hotter (maybe 195F) and actually measure the grain bed temperature. The first time or two I brewed, I did what BeerSmith said and used 168F water. I found that the wort seems to flow more freely when the temperature is higher.

I looked in BeerSmith, and I saw there was an option labeled, "Drain mash tun before starting to batch sparge," that was unchecked. That explains the directions I was getting.

Also, regarding efficiency, I've read a lot on here and I have trouble pinning it down. I'm going to keep experimenting. If I weren't a man of science, I'd say I was just unlucky (two weeks ago, I brewed an RIS with a friend using the same pre-crushed grains with nearly identical mash tuns and he came out 0.010 higher....).

 

[Dan]

I typically use 188F water for sparging. Next time, I'll go a little hotter (maybe 195F) and actually measure the grain bed temperature. The first time or two I brewed, I did what BeerSmith said and used 168F water. I found that the wort seems to flow more freely when the temperature is higher.

On BeerSmith there is a calculator under tools (BeerSmith II, I don't remember if the original BeerSmith had it) called "Strike/Infusion Temp". Select "Infusion" and input the temp of the grain bed after the 60 minute mash, pounds of grain used, infusion water volume, temperature you want to achieve and it calculates temp for your Infusion water. I use it because, if just using the normal BeerSmith Brew Sheet the temps it recommends never hit mash out temp of 168. The Strike/Infusion Temp calculator has been more helpful for me reaching the 168 mash out as well as the additional sparge water temps. Batch sparging.

 

[DrMaltyVonHopenstein]

I disagree about not stirring during the mash. I find it necessary to redistribute heat and enzymes. In the past, I wouldn't stir and see the temp probe read too high or low - until I stirred. Also, I find that if I stir every 15-20 minutes, I get a few more gravity points. In commercial brewing, they often keep the mash circulating.

As far as heat loss - I would say it is negligible, I never need to fire up.

 

[swolfe]

I disagree about not stirring during the mash. I find it necessary to redistribute heat and enzymes. In the past, I wouldn't stir and see the temp probe read too high or low - until I stirred. Also, I find that if I stir every 15-20 minutes, I get a few more gravity points. In commercial brewing, they often keep the mash circulating.

As far as heat loss - I would say it is negligible, I never need to fire up.

I lose anywhere from 0.5 to 3 deg F from my mash temp over 75 minutes or so, depending on ambient temperature, mash volume, and how much I stir it.

Edit: should also mention I mash in a converted water cooler so I can't direct fire it.

 

[ayoungrad]

Since batch sparging takes so little time, the enzymes don't have much chance to do anything before the temp is raised above denaturing temps in the boil kettle, so IMO it's unecessary and the water is better used to increase the sparge volume.

I don't agree with this as a universal statement. Some people think that mashing out is optional for all techniques. But if you buy into the benefits of mashing out then it is not optional for all techniques of batch sparging.

In my understanding, mash conversion can happen far more quickly than 60 minutes. So, unless you start heating your drained wort immediately after draining, more conversion can occur in the drained wort during sparging and at a lower temperature than you might want. For your system, mashing out may be optional but it is not necessarily optional for everyone who batch sparges.

Also, to address an earlier idea... I also have heard that higher temperature sparge water will result in better extraction from the grains. I try to sparge with water just under 170, even after mashing out.

If anyone is interested in detail about batch sparging and efficiency issues, check this link out:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Batch_Sparging_Analysis

 

[JuanMoore]

I don't agree with this as a universal statement. Some people think that mashing out is optional for all techniques. But if you buy into the benefits of mashing out then it is not optional for all techniques of batch sparging.

As I said, it's only my opinion, but I guess I do not buy into the benefits. Out of curiosity, what do you believe the benefits of a mash-out are for batch spargers?

In my understanding, mash conversion can happen far more quickly than 60 minutes. So, unless you start heating your drained wort immediately after draining, more conversion can occur in the drained wort during sparging and at a lower temperature than you might want. For your system, mashing out may be optional but it is not necessarily optional for everyone who batch sparges.

Yes, with todays highly modified malts the vast majority of conversion takes place very early on in the mash. The time will vary some depending on the grain bill, temp, and other factors, but a lot of people have shown complete conversion using the iodine test after only 20-30 min. This means that the wort profile is primarily determined by the mash temp during this early part of the mash, and pretty close to being "locked in" well before the mash is over. By the time 60 min has passed, enzyme activity has slowed to an imperceptible crawl, and there is little to no conversion going on. So even if you take hours to batch sparge, letting the wort and/or grainbed cool to and sit at beta amylase temps, there will still be very little change in the wort profile.

There are a lot of people here on HBT who mash overnight. In this extreme case the enzymes are allowed to work for 8-12 hours while slowly cooling more towards beta amylase temps, and even then the wort profile hardly changes. The beers do end up slightly drier from the extreme case of overnight mashing, but the difference is minor and easily countered by simply increasing the initial rest temp by a degree. IMO any change in the wort profile from skipping a mash-out when batch sparging is going to be imperceptibly small in the vast majority of situations, and I do therefore see the mash-out as optional.

Just to clarify, I only see the mash-out as an optional step when batch sparging, and highly recommend it when fly sparging.

Also, to address an earlier idea... I also have heard that higher temperature sparge water will result in better extraction from the grains. I try to sparge with water just under 170, even after mashing out.

This is true for fly sparging, but does not really apply to batch sparging. When fly sparging you're essentially relying on the extended soaking time and slow trickle of flow to get the sugars to dissolve into solution. Higher sparge water temperature absolutely aids this process. With batch sparging it's the stirring and agitation that dissolves the sugars into solution, which works just fine even using cold water. Kaiser has done tests that showed no change in efficiency using cold tap water to batch sparge. I have also done similar tests and came up with the same results. I know many people like to disagree with me on this one, but I know what my tests showed me, and I have yet to hear of anything other than anecdotal evidence to the contrary.

If anyone is interested in detail about batch sparging and efficiency issues, check this link out:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Batch_Sparging_Analysis

That's a good link, and for even more detailed info I was going to suggest the braukaiser website, but it appears to have been hacked and is currently down. I think kaiser may have actually written a lot of the stuff in HBT wiki that you posted. If his site gets up and running again, I think he has the results of his cold water sparge tests on there.

 

[bob1852]

Also, to address an earlier idea... I also have heard that higher temperature sparge water will result in better extraction from the grains. I try to sparge with water just under 170, even after mashing out.

Not if your conversion efficiency is ~98%+ like it can be. Kaiser did a cold sparge experiment and concluded that a hot sparge wasn't neccessary if you have proper conversion efficiency.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/cold-water-sparge-110856/

If his site gets up and running again, I think he has the results of his cold water sparge tests on there.

Yes. Look up ^^

 

[ayoungrad]

Wow. That is a great response.

I think that if there is a benefit to mashing out, it is present regardless of how you sparge. If, as you have said, the wort is nearly fixed after a sixty minute mash, then one never needs to mash out after a 60 minute mash - regardless of the type of sparging. I mash out because I'm trying to go for a less attenuated beer and I'm tweaking things to see what helps and what works. I'm still undecided. But I guess I'm a little confused as to why you see benefit in fly sparging and not batch sparging. I can see that fly sparging at 168 is beneficial, but what would be the benefit of mashing out that is not present with batch sparging?

Again, I heat my batch sparge water. This is admittedly based on very little info - just experiences while tweaking my techniques. I felt I got better efficiency and better malt flavor with heated batch sparging. I freely admit this means very little and if there is evidence to refute the statement, I can't argue.

And, yes, I think you are right about kaiser and that link.

 

[Denny]

I disagree about not stirring during the mash. I find it necessary to redistribute heat and enzymes. In the past, I wouldn't stir and see the temp probe read too high or low - until I stirred. Also, I find that if I stir every 15-20 minutes, I get a few more gravity points. In commercial brewing, they often keep the mash circulating.

As far as heat loss - I would say it is negligible, I never need to fire up.

I had the opposite experience. I found no benefits to stirring.

 

[ayoungrad]

Not if your conversion efficiency is ~98%+ like it can be. Kaiser did a cold sparge experiment and concluded that a hot sparge wasn't neccessary if you have proper conversion efficiency.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/cold-water-sparge-110856/

Sounds like my brew day just got that much easier. I'll give it a shot on Saturday...

 

[bob1852]

Sounds like my brew day just got that much easier. I'll give it a shot on Saturday...

In that thread, Kai points out that while a cold sparge works; you still need to heat your wort to boiling eventually, so you might as well sparge hot to minimize the time needed to get to a boil...

 

[Denny]

Wow. That is a great response.

I think that if there is a benefit to mashing out, it is present regardless of how you sparge. If, as you have said, the wort is nearly fixed after a sixty minute mash, then one never needs to mash out after a 60 minute mash - regardless of the type of sparging. I mash out because I'm trying to go for a less attenuated beer and I'm tweaking things to see what helps and what works. I'm still undecided. But I guess I'm a little confused as to why you see benefit in fly sparging and not batch sparging. I can see that fly sparging at 168 is beneficial, but what would be the benefit of mashing out that is not present with batch sparging?

Again, I heat my batch sparge water. This is admittedly based on very little info - just experiences while tweaking my techniques. I felt I got better efficiency and better malt flavor with heated batch sparging. I freely admit this means very little and if there is evidence to refute the statement, I can't argue.

And, yes, I think you are right about kaiser and that link.

The difference really boils down to this...in fly sparging, you may be sparging for an hour and in conversion range all the time. In batch sparging, you're at a boil maybe 15 min. after you start your runoff. A boil will definitely denature enzymes. If you're doing a mash out to denature enzymes (the real reason for it) you need to hold 170 for at least 20 min. Are you doing that when you mash out?

 

[Denny]

In that thread, Kai points out that while a cold sparge works; you still need to heat your wort to boiling eventually, so you might as well sparge hot to minimize the time needed to get to a boil...

Kai's experiment was more about seeing if there was any detriment to cold sparging, not to recommend it as a regular technique. In real life it makes little sense for the reason you mentioned. OTOH, he didn't find any issues with the beer from doing it.

 

[bob1852]

Kai's experiment was more about seeing if there was any detriment to cold sparging, not to recommend it as a regular technique. In real life it makes little sense for the reason you mentioned. OTOH, he didn't find any issues with the beer from doing it.

Yes, I believe his intent was to show that if you make efforts to have a complete conversion during the mash, you can save effort trying to get additional conversion during a sparge.

 

[ayoungrad]

If you're doing a mash out to denature enzymes (the real reason for it) you need to hold 170 for at least 20 min. Are you doing that when you mash out?

I do BIAB and double batch sparging.

My current technique (which, I know, has some overkill to it):

Add calculated amount of boiling water to mash out grains and wort.

Drain bag. Cover the mash pot (which loses very little heat).

Sparge in bag at 168 in another pot. Stir. Let sit, covered, for 10-15 minutes.

Drain bag. Sparge bag in new batch of 168, coverd for 10-15 minutes.

Combine sparge and existing wort and keep covered.

Drain second sparge.

Combine everything and start the boil.

So, yes, the wort is remains heated for more than 20 minutes.

I get 90-95% efficiency with this method (for 1.055 and below). But it can be painful and I'll probably convert to some form of compromise - like I mentioned above...

 

[ayoungrad]

Kai's experiment was more about seeing if there was any detriment to cold sparging, not to recommend it as a regular technique. In real life it makes little sense for the reason you mentioned. OTOH, he didn't find any issues with the beer from doing it.

Hmmmm. Then why bring it up?

Disappointing. I like the batches I make but it would be nice to be able to cut some time here and there.

 

[JuanMoore]

But I guess I'm a little confused as to why you see benefit in fly sparging and not batch sparging. I can see that fly sparging at 168 is beneficial, but what would be the benefit of mashing out that is not present with batch sparging?

Two reasons. The first is getting the grain bed fluid and up to temp to help the sugars dissolve into solution. If you skip the mash-out and use 168F sparge water, it will not raise the grain bed up to as high a temp as doing a mash-out will. Some people use sparge water that's hot enough to raise the grain bed to ~168 instead of a mash-out, but it's a bit of a compromise IMO.

The other reason is the difference in time that the mash is sitting, as Denny pointed out. The wort profile is nearly fixed even without a mash-out, but not entirely fixed. The much longer time frame involved with fly sparging can result in a change, albeit a small one.

I had the opposite experience. I found no benefits to stirring.

Same here. I can see how someone might get better results from stirring during the mash if they didn't dough in fully, which is pretty common among novice brewers. If it's doughed in properly, stirring during the mash can only hurt IMO.

Hmmmm. Then why bring it up?

Disappointing. I like the batches I make but it would be nice to be able to cut some time here and there.

I was the one who brought it up, and I did so to show that your statement about sparge water temp wasn't entirely correct. Feel free to use cold water to batch sparge since it won't hurt anything. Just realize that it's not going to save you any time, since it will increase the time it takes to come to a boil by roughly the same amount of time it would have taken to heat the sparge water. Heating the sparge water during the mash and having it ready to go when the mash is over will be the best way for you to save time.

 

[JuanMoore]

Yes. Look up ^^

Thanks, I knew it was around here somewhere, but didn't really feel like looking for it after my dissapointing braukaiser search result. I really hope he gets the site working again, it's an amazing resource.

 

[Denny]

I really hope he gets the site working again, it's an amazing resource.

It's working as of the time of this post.

 

[Native302]

I ran into your problem when I first started All Grain. Now I condition my grain the night before I brew and efficiencey is in the 90% + range. Makes a whole world of difference.

 

[JuanMoore]

It's working as of the time of this post.

Good news!

I should add that your site is also a great resource. I read and followed your batch sparge process when I first started brewing, and I think it contributed greatly to the lack of issues/problems I had. Thanks!

 

[Denny]

Good news!

I should add that your site is also a great resource. I read and followed your batch sparge process when I first started brewing, and I think it contributed greatly to the lack of issues/problems I had. Thanks!

You;re welcome!

 

[winvarin]

Now to throw a curveball into this discussion. What about a recirculating system and batch sparging? I am looking at building a direct fired RIMS (similar to the Brewtus 10). I currently batch sparge using a 10-gallon cooler. If I make the switch, can I still batch sparge? Or will I have to change my technique to account for fly sparging?

Thinking through the workflow logically makes me think I should still be able to batch sparge (RIMS for the mash>drain with pump>Add 1st sparge water with pump from HLT, recirc in MLT with pump for a couple of min>drain with pump, etc).

But as usual, there is probably some flaw in my thought process.

 

[JuanMoore]

Now to throw a curveball into this discussion. What about a recirculating system and batch sparging? I am looking at building a direct fired RIMS (similar to the Brewtus 10). I currently batch sparge using a 10-gallon cooler. If I make the switch, can I still batch sparge? Or will I have to change my technique to account for fly sparging?

Thinking through the workflow logically makes me think I should still be able to batch sparge (RIMS for the mash>drain with pump>Add 1st sparge water with pump from HLT, recirc in MLT with pump for a couple of min>drain with pump, etc).

But as usual, there is probably some flaw in my thought process.

Your thought process is fine. I have a HERMS and use a double batch sparge 90% of the time.

 

[winvarin]

Your thought process is fine. I have a HERMS and use a double batch sparge 90% of the time.

What sort of efficiency are you getting with batch sparge on a HERMS? And how does it compare to your efficiency if you fly sparge with the same system?

 

[JuanMoore]

What sort of efficiency are you getting with batch sparge on a HERMS? And how does it compare to your efficiency if you fly sparge with the same system?

For a short time I was trying to chase higher efficiency, and got as high as 91% using a super fine crush and a triple batch sparge, but also had to fight a stuck sparge. I am now more interested in consistency and ease of use, and get ~82% plus or minus a little depending on OG. I'd much rather buy an extra pound or two of grain and be able to hit my OG on the head every time.

I've only done a full fly sparge twice, and neither time was on this system. My experience comparing the two was that fly sparging resulted in a 1-2% increase in efficiency, but having only done it twice it's not a very good indicator. I have done a hybrid fly sparge on my current system, and it did net a couple extra gravity points, but also took a lot longer. I stick with batch sparging because it's fast, easy, consistent, and there are fewer things to worry about.

 

[bootney]

I have a few questions. With my initial dough in, I have always been careful with my stirring(to avoid oxidation), but it's when I do my batch sparge that I have concerns about the amount of stirring I have to do. I do an infusion mashout(MLT is a cooler), so after draining the first runnings I add 195+ water to the MLT to get the grain bed up to 168-170. I find it necessary to stir in order to mix the grains with the added water to even out the mash temp. I follow the same steps for a double batch sparge as well.

So my question is, does my stirring of the sparge have a significant effect on the introduction of oxygen to the mash? Are there any suggestions to limit oxidation of the mash? I have had a few batches that didn't hold up real well flavor wise, but that was back when I was bottling. My kegged beers seem to hold up much better.

 

[Denny]

So my question is, does my stirring of the sparge have a significant effect on the introduction of oxygen to the mash? Are there any suggestions to limit oxidation of the mash? I have had a few batches that didn't hold up real well flavor wise, but that was back when I was bottling. My kegged beers seem to hold up much better.

I've made 405 batches by batch sparging and the necessary stirring. I have never found that oxidation if the mash was an issue. I even spent a year experimenting with adding campden tabs to the mash to prevent oxidation. I found no difference in the beer, so after a year I concluded that I didn't have a problem and stopped using it. In short, just stir thoroughly but not ewoildly and you'll be fine.

 

[JuanMoore]

I have a few questions. With my initial dough in, I have always been careful with my stirring(to avoid oxidation), but it's when I do my batch sparge that I have concerns about the amount of stirring I have to do. I do an infusion mashout(MLT is a cooler), so after draining the first runnings I add 195+ water to the MLT to get the grain bed up to 168-170. I find it necessary to stir in order to mix the grains with the added water to even out the mash temp. I follow the same steps for a double batch sparge as well.

So my question is, does my stirring of the sparge have a significant effect on the introduction of oxygen to the mash? Are there any suggestions to limit oxidation of the mash? I have had a few batches that didn't hold up real well flavor wise, but that was back when I was bottling. My kegged beers seem to hold up much better.

What you're referring to is HSA, or hot side aeration, which many people feel is a myth. It has been proven that it can happen, but it takes enormous amounts of HSA to have any significant impact on the flavor stability of the beer. I'm pretty sure brewstrong and basic brewing have both done podcasts covering this issue if you'd like more info. Even fairly vigorous strring of the mash at dough in and with the sparge water additions isn't going to introduce enough oxygen to hurt anything. If you don't stir well at dough in you'll have dough balls, incomplete conversion, and low efficiency. If you batch sparge and don't stir with the sparge water additions, the sugars on the grains won't dissolve into solution well, and you'll have terrible lauter efficiency.