baffled by beer smith...advice needed

[storytyme]

A gallon an hour is about average, but there's a lot of deviation of course, depending on equipment, environment, kettle size, etc. For 5 gallons 1.5 gallons boil off is on the high side.

Your burner may need cleaning, especially its orifice. Low outside temps can change the burner's behavior too, and causing higher boil off at the same time. Yellow flames means lack of air flow/supply for the amount of fuel. And sooty kettle bottoms.

Thanks IslandLizard. What burner do you use and are you happy with it?

I took the burner apart and cleaned it. I have also noticed that my propane tank has been putting out a lot of condensation. Once when the weather was a bit cooler (in the 40's) it actually froze the tank to the concrete.

 

[IslandLizard]

Read through this thread again, there are really good pointers on gravity and volume I think you've missed. A pre-boil gravity of 1.037 will not get you 1.080 in an hour boil. So either there's p!ss poor mash efficiency, not extracting enough points to make your wort, and/or too much pre-boil volume.

Don't forget, racking and trub losses are all at OG, so they'll give you less net beer. Any losses there are very costly, and that's where you can get most of your "savings." 3rd runnings pale in comparison. 1 qt of OG wort saved at 1.080 is the same as 1 gallon of 3rd runnings at 1.020, before boil. Then you have to boil off 3 qts of that to regain a qt at 1.080.

 

[gueykewl]

I am not concerned so much for the mash eff. as I have analyzed that one and am comfortable with the set-up. Over 40 batches doing all grain and my avg mash eff. is about 72%.



I think where I went wrong was when I got tired of using hop bags and a DIY hop spider. I use mainly leaf hops and I wanted to throw them into the kettle freely. So I bought a bazooka style screen for the kettle. I just completed a test with just water to see how much water is left in the kettle after draining.



with bazooka screen (kettle not tipped forward): 1.375 gal left

with bazooka screen (kettle tipped forward): .625 gal



I then attached my dip tube that bends to the side of the kettle that I used when I used hop bags/spider.



with dip-tube (kettle not tipped towards tube side): 6 oz

with dip-tube (kettle tipped towards tube side): <6 oz



I know with hop additions there will be a bit more liquid soaked up, but how much?



After my testing of this I am thinking I will tip kettle with screen on and set my trub loss to around .75 gal. Thoughts on this??



Thank you everyone for the ideas and thoughts. That is why I love this hobby!

If I were a commercial brewer I would definitely be watching my brew house efficiencies as it is an important factor in determining if I am making money or losing money. Since I am just a home brewer My number one priority is to make good, consistent beer.

That being said there are quite a few factors that determine accurate brew house efficiencies and that can change from beer style to equipment. Sometimes I may brew the same DIPA using pellets and then brew the same beer using leaf hops and hop bursting techniques huge which results in a huge difference in brewhouse efficiencies due to trub loss even with a whirlpool.

Best advice I can give is brew the beer, take accurate measurements, taste the beer, and keep detailed logs. Keeping detailed notes for each batch of beer is key to understanding your brewing process and identifying issues when problems do arise.

Brew beer and have fun!

 

[IslandLizard]

Thanks IslandLizard. What burner do you use and are you happy with it?

I took the burner apart and cleaned it. I have also noticed that my propane tank has been putting out a lot of condensation. Once when the weather was a bit cooler (in the 40's) it actually froze the tank to the concrete.

I now mostly brew electric (induction) but have used, and still use occasionally, 2 Blichmann burners. I clean them regularly and give me nice blue flames and a ton of heat. Their burner elements are the same large banjo ones other manufacturers use in their housing. The distance from top of flames to pot (~2") is essential for good efficiency as is some form of windscreen (aluminum flashing). Any heat that escapes along the sides does no good to your wort.

Condensation and even freezing of your tank is a sign of high fuel use, probably more than you should. I can power my 2 burners off one 20# tank and not get a freeze-up.

Please take a look at Brew 365 (or BF's) mash calculator and punch in your numbers and see if they are anywhere near BS'. Printing out the "brew sheet" from BS makes me scratch my head each time... what is he thinking? Where's the information I really need, it's not on there.

 

[storytyme]

Read through this thread again, there are really good pointers on gravity and volume I think you've missed. A pre-boil gravity of 1.037 will not get you 1.080 in an hour boil. So either there's p!ss poor mash efficiency, not extracting enough points to make your wort, and/or too much pre-boil volume.

Don't forget, racking and trub losses are all at OG, so they'll give you less net beer. Any losses there are very costly, and that's where you can get most of your "savings." 3rd runnings pale in comparison. 1 qt of OG wort saved at 1.080 is the same as 1 gallon of 3rd runnings at 1.020, before boil. Then you have to boil off 3 qts of that to regain a qt at 1.080.

Some clarification on the 1.080 brew. That was the est. OG after I added 1.25 corn sugar and .44 lbs DME. If I deleted those out of the recipe it est. an OG of 1.065. My OG with the sugar and DME was 1.053.

On the grain bill without the added sugar and DME my pre-boil gravity gave me a mash eff. of 66%. A bit low, but not too bad.

I take my OG readings once it has been racked to the fermentor and aerated. Should I be doing this differently?

 

[storytyme]

I now mostly brew electric (induction) but have used, and still use occasionally, 2 Blichmann burners. I clean them regularly and give me nice blue flames and a ton of heat. Their burner elements are the same large banjo ones other manufacturers use in their housing. The distance from top of flames to pot (~2") is essential for good efficiency as is some form of windscreen (aluminum flashing). Any heat that escapes along the sides does no good to your wort.

Condensation and even freezing of your tank is a sign of high fuel use, probably more than you should. I can power my 2 burners off one 20# tank and not get a freeze-up.

Please take a look at Brew 365 (or BF's) mash calculator and punch in your numbers and see if they are anywhere near BS'. Printing out the "brew sheet" from BS makes me scratch my head each time... what is he thinking? Where's the information I really need, it's not on there.

I for sure will punch in those numbers. Thanks for the advice on the burners as well. Thanks again.

 

[storytyme]

If I were a commercial brewer I would definitely be watching my brew house efficiencies as it is an important factor in determining if I am making money or losing money. Since I am just a home brewer My number one priority is to make good, consistent beer.

That being said there are quite a few factors that determine accurate brew house efficiencies and that can change from beer style to equipment. Sometimes I may brew the same DIPA using pellets and then brew the same beer using leaf hops and hop bursting techniques huge which results in a huge difference in brewhouse efficiencies due to trub loss even with a whirlpool.

Best advice I can give is brew the beer, take accurate measurements, taste the beer, and keep detailed logs. Keeping detailed notes for each batch of beer is key to understanding your brewing process and identifying issues when problems do arise.


Brew beer and have fun!

I agree. To me taking something that is already pretty good in my opinion and improving it makes the hobby fun. Running numbers, understanding those numbers and truly getting behind the meaning of all if it intrigues me. Talking to people on here to get different perspectives and opinions is fun as well.

The great thing is I know my beer that I made will still be good even though it is now a pale and IPA instead of IPA and IIPA.

 

[bondra76]

All great tips here.

Just in general, I have learned with Brewsmith to measure volumes pretty much at every single step of the process. Getting a gallon or half gallon measuring cup helps a lot and so does having the wooden dowel for kettle measurements and I even marked off my glass carboy with permanent marker for a few brews.

It's taken me probably 3-4 brews being anal about measurements, but I finally have Brewsmith straight. There's a lot of science to that app and you just have to make sure you're inputting your data to figure it all out.

 

[storytyme]

I now mostly brew electric (induction) but have used, and still use occasionally, 2 Blichmann burners. I clean them regularly and give me nice blue flames and a ton of heat. Their burner elements are the same large banjo ones other manufacturers use in their housing. The distance from top of flames to pot (~2") is essential for good efficiency as is some form of windscreen (aluminum flashing). Any heat that escapes along the sides does no good to your wort.

I measured my burner distance to bottom of kettle (no flame) and it is 5.5". Like I said before the flame never gets blue, just orange. May have to get a new burner or raise it up a bit?

 

[IslandLizard]

I measured my burner distance to bottom of kettle (no flame) and it is 5.5". Like I said before the flame never gets blue, just orange. May have to get a new burner or raise it up a bit?

The shorter distance and a windshield will give you better heating efficiency, but won't change the color of your flame.

Yellow flames means the fuel doesn't burn completely, and produces carbon (soot) that glows (burns) yellow in the flame. You may be trying to eek more BTUs out of your burner than it is designed for by cranking up the gas supply, but there's not enough air (oxygen) available to burn the amount of propane delivered. You're simply wasting gas, while coating your kettle black.

If you want more power, a larger burner may be you best bet. Just don't stare blind on advertised BTUs, most are unsubstantiated marketing hype; higher numbers sell better. Those large banjo cast iron elements used in Bayou's KAB4, Blichmann's Top Tier, and other manufacturers' burners, are very common. The Blichmann delivers 72000 BTU at full bore (10psi). Here's a thread on some of the comparisons.

 

[storytyme]

The shorter distance and a windshield will give you better heating efficiency, but won't change the color of your flame.

Yellow flames means the fuel doesn't burn completely, and produces carbon (soot) that glows (burns) yellow in the flame. You may be trying to eek more BTUs out of your burner than it is designed for by cranking up the gas supply, but there's not enough air (oxygen) available to burn the amount of propane delivered. You're simply wasting gas, while coating your kettle black.

If you want more power, a larger burner may be you best bet. Just don't stare blind on advertised BTUs, most are unsubstantiated marketing hype; higher numbers sell better. Those large banjo cast iron elements used in Bayou's KAB4, Blichmann's Top Tier, and other manufacturers' burners, are very common. The Blichmann delivers 72000 BTU at full bore (10psi). Here's a thread on some of the comparisons.

Great info. Much appreciate. After looking at all the models I realized I have the Bayou SP50. When I chose that model it was mainly for the height of the burner. I really didn't do much research on it. It seems like the SQ14 is a popular one as well so I may look more into that. Thanks again for all the help.

 

[frettfreak]

GREAT info in the thread.

Even though i have brewed quite a few batches, my numbers always seem to be off (not a lot but i strive for perfection). Beer usually comes out great though. I took a recipe i brewed the other day and re-created an equipment profile for my equipment. Got rid of the trub and chiller loss in the profile completely and just increased my batch size (couple other little tweaks here and there). When i applied the new equipment profile to the recipe, the numbers it spit out were almost dead on with what i actually got.

Thanks for all the tips! Hopefully next brew day will be spot on!