Bad Kitty Brewery eBIAB

[schwartzr33]

I hope people find this documentation useful. First, I'd like to thank P-J for his designs, Kal for the vast amount of information, shuckit and DaSwede for their parts list, and jeffmeh for his explanations. This is a 240V/30A system, with a 20 gallon pot. We've done 4 batches on it and learn something new each time. I'll try to touch on things that have gone well and the things that still need work.

We had central air installed this year and I had an extra 240V/30A GFI outlet dropped in the basement for the electrical. While the electrician was there I also had him place a 120/15 GFI on the wall (under the light) and another one up in rafters for the ventilation.

The house is from 1927 and the brew pot is sitting on a concrete block, that I assume is a platform for an ancient washing machine.

The panel is pretty straightforward, Electric Brewing forum fare. With no kids in the house, the only modification I made to P-J's eBIAB drawing was to use a Auberins push button switch, instead of a key switch.

The inside of the pot is a work in progress. Perhaps the fourth time is the charm? On the first run, the bag got sucked into the pickup tube. 2nd try was a large tea ball, which worked well, until it got massively gunked up and stopped flowing. Third try was a stainless cooling rack--it's sharp edges shredded the bag (that was popular with it's creator, SWMBO) Try number four is pictured: pickup tube running through a small stainless strainer. This worked very well on the first attempt and will be repeated this weekend.

The main problem we are still having is temperature stratification. The bag really seems to block the wort circulation. When heating the mash, the temperature races up 6-8 degrees higher than our target, but some heavy stirring and sloshing of the bag brings things back down to where we want it to be. That is with full-throttle recirculation. The RTD is in the welded fitting (thank you Spike Brewing). I've done some more reading and have moved the RTD to the valve, we'll see if that helps to stabilize the temperature readings.

More to follow...

 

[AlphaWolf-Brewery]

I use the Blichmann Hopblocker to keep the bag from blocking the tube and it has worked fine.

 

[Fat_Maul]

would having just some sort of false bottom work in this thing?

 

[schwartzr33]

The first photo shows the ventilation system and bar from which we suspend the bag for drainage. I'm pleased with the vortex fan, 6", 540 CFM. It seems to do a good job venting the steam, the tubing runs about 20' to the dryer vent. Still need to find a Y-connector so the dryer and ventilation tube can be hooked up simultaneously. The hood is a $5 plastic storage container from Menards. A little bit of condensation does drip back into the pot, so we put the lid on the kettle for the last few minutes of the boil.

The bar is black pipe and is suspended using plastic pipe strapping.

The Chugger pump is mounted inside another $5 container to protect the motor from splashes. That has worked really well.

Next is an action shot of sloshing the bag to circulate the wort. This works really well for mixing up the grains, but I wish it wasn't necessary for smoothing out the temperature stratification. We use a siphon clip to hold recirculation hose in place.

Then you can see my brew partner squeezing the snot out of the bag. It is also a good shot of the bag hanging on the carabiner.

Finally, that handsome devil is Harold, the eponymous bad kitty.

 

[AlphaWolf-Brewery]

Even with recirculating you have to slosh the bag to equal out temps?

 

[schwartzr33]

Yes, we're still getting stratification even with recirc. It may be because the RTD is mounted at 1" from the bottom, so in close proximity to the element, and the bag/grain keeps the wort from distributing. However, this weekend we are going to try it with the RTD mounted in the valve. If that doesn't work, it maybe time for Plan E, which could be HERMS.

 

[schwartzr33]

I use the Blichmann Hopblocker to keep the bag from blocking the tube and it has worked fine.

Cool, thanks for the tip. I'd have to change the dip tube, but that is a good solution for keeping the bag from blocking the tube.

 

[schwartzr33]

would having just some sort of false bottom work in this thing?

It is a 20" pot and I've had a hard time finding a wide, reasonably priced, stainless solution. I'd welcome suggestions. The 14" cheapo cooling rack I tried had sharp edges and shredded the first bag.

 

[Gription79]

Check out Arbor Fabricating, they build custom stainless mesh baskets. They are reasonably priced and people seem to be happy with the product.

Here is a thread about the fabricator https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/new-way-control-pellet-hop-gunk-352293/.

 

[IrregularPulse]

ChecCheck out Jaybird on here. Hand made, custom false bottoms. Great quality!

 

[chutracheese]

Nice job. I have an electric brewery and tried BIAB for the first time a week ago. What do you do to keep the mash at temp? Are you heating with the element while mashing? What about the bag touching the element? I wrapped the pot in a blanket, but still lost several degrees. I had to raise the bag, heat the liquid, then drop the bag back in. Just looking for a better way to maintain mash temp. Thanks!

 

[jeffmeh]

I have been using a round steamer rack for years, with no problems regarding sharp edges and the bag. I don't recirculate however, so perhaps I would have had a different experience if the suction was forcing the bag against the rack.

The one I have is similar to these. http://www.webstaurantstore.com/3189/steamer-racks.html

 

[schwartzr33]

Nice job. I have an electric brewery and tried BIAB for the first time a week ago. What do you do to keep the mash at temp? Are you heating with the element while mashing? What about the bag touching the element? I wrapped the pot in a blanket, but still lost several degrees. I had to raise the bag, heat the liquid, then drop the bag back in. Just looking for a better way to maintain mash temp. Thanks!

Well, the PID is suppose to keep the mash at temperature, using the element, but that's where the difficulty has been, with the uneven temperatures between the pot and grain. That's why we've been sloshing and stirring, which seems to work well, but it is not the set it and forget it solution I was hoping for when I designed the system. The bag versus the element is not an issue for me. I read a bunch of posts and got the impression that the bag would not scorch, especially with a ULWD element (wavy Camco). This has proven to be the case, the bag floats around the element and the element doesn't get that hot anyway. I'd say leave the bag in and see how it goes. My experience is that getting an even temperature is more of a worry than scorching the bag.

 

[schwartzr33]

I have been using a round steamer rack for years, with no problems regarding sharp edges and the bag. I don't recirculate however, so perhaps I would have had a different experience if the suction was forcing the bag against the rack.

The one I have is similar to these. http://www.webstaurantstore.com/3189/steamer-racks.html

Thanks, Jeffmeh. These are very similar to what I tried, but in retrospect, mine had very obvious sharp edges. The shredding problem wasn't the recirculation, but the aggressive sloshing. I think I have the bag-suck issue figured out with the strainer--now just gotta figure out how to get even temps.

 

[jeffmeh]

I do find it strange that you are having temperature stratification issues recirculating from the bottom to the top and through the mash. You will certainly lose some heat in the tube, so if you have it any longer than necessary you should probably shorten it. You could also wrap it in some pipe insulation. If the bag is too fine and not draining, then I would expect it to be obvious with vacuum issues with the pump, and that you would see a rise in the water level close to the volume not contained in the bag. You could experiment more with the flow rates as well.

Is the temperature uniform inside the bag, but different from the temperature below it, or is the temperature not uniform inside the bag? If the former, you can adjust the PID to account for the difference. If the latter, I would expect the issues to be from side to side, so you might want to try using some type of manifold for the return, like the loc line circle nozzle http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00065UDB0/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20. If the issues are from top to bottom, then I'm stumped if you are recirculating wide open and getting good flow.

By all means keep us posted as you work through this.

 

[jeffmeh]

Also, having the lid on during recirculation should certainly reduce heat loss.

 

[paulfg]

jeffmeh
I too was having large temp differences in my biab recirculating system.My temp probe was in the return tee in the lid,I then moved it to the pot wall under the cake rack false bottom and it was better .I know have it in a tee at the valve out of the pot and find that the mash gets about 1.5 degrees celcius(sorry about metric but i am in greece)lower than the temp under the bag.
I still dont know what is correct having the temp under the bag at the required temp and the grain bed slightly lower or the grain bed correct and the wort near the element higher
any suggestions appreciated ,sorry to highjack the thread
Paul

 

[AlphaWolf-Brewery]

I think the problem has to be where your temp probe is located. Try changing it to a T on the output of your kettle and you shouldnt have any issues. This way it is taking the temp of the hottest liquid which is then recirc to the top of your mash.

 

[chutracheese]

Schwartz - Wow. You have put the bag on the element? I have the same wavy Camco element, but it scares me. Was it a 5500 on full?
Didn't burn, huh. Might try it, just a little scared.

 

[schwartzr33]

Schwartz - Wow. You have put the bag on the element? I have the same wavy Camco element, but it scares me. Was it a 5500 on full?
Didn't burn, huh. Might try it, just a little scared.

Yeah, we haven't had any problems with the bag on the element. When I first started planning the build, I thought a false bottom was a requirement, but later I read several posts that said it wasn't an issue. I'm not sure if this logic is 100% accurate, but the element is not on full blast for very long when mashing. You heat your strike water without the bag in the pot. After that, while the bag is in, the element is only on for brief periods of time to keep the wort at temperature. And there is a lot of water to protect the bag. I think I've read that the ULWD nature of the element is helpful in protecting the bag, but there are others here who can explain that better than I can.

 

[schwartzr33]

Let's start with the things that went well today. First, I'm happy to report that putting the RTD in the tee worked well. The temperature was much more stable. We still did some sloshing and stirring, and occasionally turned off the element, but we did those things much, much less than in the past. Overall, the mash temperature was much more consistent with a lot less fussing. The PID did run a few degrees high, so eventually I'll need to calibrate it. Also, we used some fresh hops that a friend had grown and we put them in a paint strainer bag with a zip tie to keep them contained--that worked like a charm.

Things that didn't go well: Unfortunately, we had a major disaster with the bag. During the mash the pump wash running on full and it sucked the bag down with enough force that it crushed my stainless strainer (you can see the strainer in its better days in my OP), that choked the pump, and because the bag was immobilized it.... wait for it....... scorched holes in the bag! We ended up with probably a cup of loose grain in the wort, which really mucked up the plate chiller. Not a good finish to the brew day. Fortunately, the wort didn't taste burnt (due to the melted bag), as some on HBT have said. I am now looking for tips on how to get the melted nylon off the element. I'm thinking of light sanding with very fine sand paper. Thoughts?

So, do elements melt bags? Well, yes they do, though perhaps only under certain circumstances.

So, where to go from here? I see three options:
1) Patch the holes in the bag and get the Blichmann Hopblocker. And assume the bag won't melt because it won't get sucked into the pickup tube again.
2) Fix the bag and go with a custom made false bottom.
3) Ditch the bag and go with a custom made basket, a la wobdee https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/my-one-vessel-ag-system-380656/

I would welcome your feedback. Thanks.

 

[chutracheese]

Ugh. That sucks. Maybe try a Scotch Brite Dobie (http://www.scotch-brite.com/wps/por...living/Geeky-Clean/Anatomy/Dobie-All-Purpose/) for starters to see if it'll come off the element.

The hop blocker and a custom false bottom both sound expensive. Maybe try a pizza screen with screws for legs?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002KE5OFA/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I think this is what I am going to try.

 

[Chris7687]

Hey schwartz,
Wanted to chime in and give you a little insight on my eBIAB system and experience. I have a 22 gallon Bayou Classic Kettle with a weldless T sightglass and temp probe and a 3 way ball valve. Also, I have a ULWD 5500W heating element. My bag is placed directly into the kettle and does not have a shield from the heating element. I do not have a pump, but do not have problems maintaining mash temps. My trick is to keep the lid on during the mash and stir occasionally to distribute heat. Every 15 minutes or so (when I see the temp drop) I will kick the element on and stir the mash vigorously. I like the recirc idea, but feel like it would create to much pressure with such a fine bag which is used for BIAB. I have come to the conclusion it is cheaper and less hassle to go without.

As mentioned again, I believe as long as you use an Ultra Low Watt Density heating element you are fine with leaving the bag on the heating element, but make sure to stir vigorously! I have made 6 batches (11-14 gallon) with this system and have yet to have any problems. Hope this helps.

 

[user 78027]

I like the recirc idea, but feel like it would create to much pressure with such a fine bag which is used for BIAB.

Chris, when you BIAB mash is your water to grist ratio high or low. I am certainly not an expert here, just trying to learn. If the ratio is high, lots of water, what pressure are you referring to?

 

[ODI3]

I have almost the same setup as Chris: 26 gal kettle and make 10 or 15 gal batches, no Temp controller, no pumps, no bag shield, and have attached uhaul moving blankets via bungee cords for insulation. I grind the grain into dust using a corona mill.

I just heat water to temperature i am looking for (+6 degrees to account for grain addition temp drop) add grain, mix, add lid and add a blanket on top. I used to stir every 20 min but don't even bother doing that anymore. With stirring, I lose 3 degrees over the hour, with setting and forgetting, I lose 1-2 degrees over the hour. Then I pull bag using a pulley pulley and let it hang and drain until it stops dripping. I end up with 80-84% mash efficency. Afterwards, I strain trub as its going into fermenters using strainer and a piece of swiss voille.

There are a few problems with pumps and trying to stabilize the mash temp:
1) The pump pulls all of the water from around the element and compacts the grain/bag onto the element. This insulates the element and can cause element/grain or bag to burn.

2)A lot of heat is lost due to liquid flowing through tubes and pump.

3)The temperature at the sensor will be different then the temp at the element.

4)The more "stuff" (baskets, element shield, hop screens) you put in the kettle, the more difficulties you will have with temp stratification and having the element burn.

I think we were just trying to keep a kettle full of liquid and grain at the correct temperature I think recirc would be perfect, but the bag really causes problems..

I think pumps are better used for cooling and/or filtering (jamil'o'chiller, whirlpooling, filtering using the brewhardware trub filter, plate chillers etc) But mashing... no so much.

Edit: For a 60L 1.050 batch I use 12.5 kg of malt, 85L of water all added at mash-in.
My boil off is about 15L For my 90 min boil. I don't bother with mash-outs.

 

[user 78027]

I think if we were just trying to keep a kettle full of liquid and grain at the correct temperature I think recirc would be perfect, but the bag really causes problems..

I think pumps are better used for cooling and/or filtering (jamil'o'chiller, whirlpooling, filtering using the brewhardware trub filter, plate chillers etc) But mashing... no so much.

Are you suggesting that if one wants to be more precise with mash temperature then the traditional 3 kettle system out performs the BIAB? I am trying to figure out if I should build an electric BIAB or an electric traditional 3 kettle arrangement. I have looked at the electric brewery information and with the HERMS coil it seems they can keep the temperature within a degree by recirculating the sweet wort through the HLT.

 

[ODI3]

No sorry, I am just strictly referring to electric BIAB systems. In electric BIAB systems I personally don't think using a pump works well for keeping mash temps.

3 Vessel systems do not use a bag and are a totally different beast.

 

[user 78027]

So, where to go from here? I see three options:
1) Patch the holes in the bag and get the Blichmann Hopblocker. And assume the bag won't melt because it won't get sucked into the pickup tube again.
2) Fix the bag and go with a custom made false bottom.
3) Ditch the bag and go with a custom made basket, a la wobdee https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/my-one-vessel-ag-system-380656/

I would welcome your feedback. Thanks.

I think you are really close and one minor change would make a huge difference. I have ab=n elevated rack that fits into the bottom of my kettle that keeps the bag off of the bottom. There are many BIAB threads that talk about this. It does solve several issues. It stops your bag from contacting the burner and it stops the bag from getting sucked intl your recirc pump. It creates an environment similar to the 3 kettle MLT arrangement.

If you brew like me, a very high grist to water ratio, moving the bag a few inches from the bottom of the pot does not increase the grist ratio that much and you would still be over the recommended ratio that traditional MLT brewers have. So your sweet wort is still good.

Then just drop the flow of the recirc pump to the minimum that will keep the temperature close to constant. The recirc water flows over the grist in the bag so you don't need to mix any. To do this you will need a valve after the pump.

I think these two changes will make all the difference to your process.

Edit: And keep your transfer tubes as short as possible to reduce heat loss.

 

[schwartzr33]

Thanks for all the great feedback and ideas. I think I will experiment with both a) insulation, lid on, no recirc and b) a false bottom/pizza screen.

One question on the pizza screen.... Is anyone concerned about the screen being made from aluminum? I need a 16" screen and have has trouble finding a reasonably prices stainless option, but large, cheap aluminum ones are plentiful. I'm far from an metallurgy expert, but don't we generally try to avoid aluminum? Maybe if I only use the screen for the mash and remove it before the boil there wouldn't be any issues?

 

[jeffmeh]

Aluminum is fine, although the pizza screen will likely not take much weight without bowing. You should boil the aluminum pizza screen once for about 30 minutes before you brew with it. This creates a dull oxidization layer that you should never scrub off with abrasives or caustics. That's what separates the aluminum from the food or wort.