Bad flavor in last 3 AG beers

[danio]

Yeah - I tasted star san and water and I didn't get the same flavor as I get in the beer, but maybe it's a reaction with my 8.3ph water, starsan and beer. Who knows - I'm beginning to fear the foam. I gave my stuff a bit of a rinse this time through to get rid of some of the residue.

 

[VladOfTrub]

8.3Ph + 188ppm alkaline + 175F = a bucket of tannin.

 

[danio]

Hehe, well if that's what I'm tasting it's not the same as tannins in wine. It's more chemical. But it could easily be tannins and they are just different then I expect them to be.

 

[tgmartin000]

Yea with an alkalinity of 180ppm and 8.3 pH, and a relatively light beer like an ipa, I think your mash pH is going to be over 6. Then with all that alkalinity, and a long sparge, your pH is gonna go way up.

See if your water dept will give you a brewing water report, check out ex waterr, and dilute with RO.

 

[danio]

Hello all! I thought I'd post an update. It's been 6 days in the primary now. I know that's not that long, but fermentation had been finished for a day or so and I was curious about gravity\initial taste. Gravity is at 1.018...pretty high, considering I mashed at 149. Beersmith predicted 1.014, so it's got a bit more to do, I bet, or my thermometer measured low and the center of the mash was a higher F.

Anyway, the taste is basically gone. My OCD side tells me its still there baaarrreeeelllllyyy. It's a weird stale flavor. But it's presence might be my imagination. It's 100x better than it was. The interesting thing is I actually get that taste from commercial beers once and a while. I wonder if what I was tasting was just a huge accentuation of a 'not necessarily bad' flavor (yeast, minor astringency, whatever) due to bad water\ph, whatever.

There may be a slight astringency feel, too. It's a little powdery on the tongue. That would be surprising though, since I built up my own water and mashed\sparged at fairly low temps. Again, these are super early days.

Anyway, I'll give this more time in the primary and then dry hop the sucker. After that it's into the keg. I'll be curious how it goes.

Thanks all for all the helpful comments, etc!

Dan

EDIT: yeah, after finishing the whole sample, my tongue was super puckered. I wonder if I've swapped one problem for another. Grrrr!

EDIT #2: Could powdery, tongue puckering be from too much gypsum or calcium chloride? I did 1tsp per 5 gal

 

[erikhild59]

Not sure if its what you're tasting, but I used to get an astringent/bitterish/stale aftertaste and narrowed it down to a ph problem. I now add 1 tbsp of calcium chloride to my mash and also add 1 to 1.5 tbsps of lactic acid to my sparge water. The flavor has disappeared since. Sometimes I add gypsum to the mash also , depending on the recipe.

 

[danio]

Ok - I can give that a try. So you are talking tablespoons for both Calcium Ch. and Lactic Acid? Just wanted to double check before I brew agian - I've been workin in teaspoons.

Thanks for the feedback!

Dan

 

[pvtschultz]

You can try racking to secondary if you beer finished a few points too high in gravity. Oftentimes the slight disturbance is enough to give them one last boost. You can also increase the temperature some to clean up the last few points.

 

[erikhild59]

Ok - I can give that a try. So you are talking tablespoons for both Calcium Ch. and Lactic Acid? Just wanted to double check before I brew agian - I've been workin in teaspoons.

Thanks for the feedback!

Dan

Had to check the logbook for this one. I use teaspoons for the calcium chloride and gypsum and tablespoons for the lactic acid. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[danio]

Great! Thanks for checking, that lines up more with what I was thinking of doing.

I've been pouring over the stickies in the Brewing Science thread trying to figure out my next attempt. Is there a definitive reason\scenario to add lactic acid to water pre-heating, during mash or to sparge water? Could you add it to the mash right after adding your strike and adjust pH in realtime?

 

[erikhild59]

I'm sure it would work , many people do add lactic acid to the mash and continually measure til they hit their target ph. I don't have a meter so I have relied on the old taste buds method , and it works for me. Like so many other things in brewing, you have to figure out what works for you and gives you beer that tastes the way you want it to. Experiment with it. Taste it . Learn what each addition or combination does to you're beer. You will be a better brewer for it.

 

[tgmartin000]

Great! Thanks for checking, that lines up more with what I was thinking of doing.

I've been pouring over the stickies in the Brewing Science thread trying to figure out my next attempt. Is there a definitive reason\scenario to add lactic acid to water pre-heating, during mash or to sparge water? Could you add it to the mash right after adding your strike and adjust pH in realtime?

You could. My theory is that adding it to the strike water mixes it in better for more consistency.

 

[danio]

Well I figure I'll revive this dead thread in the hopes that I can get some last bits of advice.

I've brewed a few batches lately and let my old ones age. What I'm finding out is that the flavor diminishes slightly with aging but really not that much at all. It's ever-present in the finish and hits you at 3 seconds after tasting. They also don't even taste like IPAs to me.

The new brews with RO water and 1tsp lactic acid for sparge and 1 tsp lactic acid for strike water have less stale taste but its definitely there. I'm at a total loss. I'm going to do an extract brew to see whats up but I'd hate to go back to that permanently just because I can't sort out my AG brews. I've made a number of great AG beers (same recipes as ones that were recently bad) and so I'm not sure whats up. It's incredibly frustrating. Although I will say that I've learned a HUGE amount about water (I think I've memorized Yooper's water priming sticky, hehe.)

I wonder if its just something really simple like oxidation. I'm tasting it in the primary, I'm draining from my tun into my kettle with a tube (no aeration), and I'm pouring from the kettle to the carboy through a funnel like normal at about 76F. That's never been an issue before...?

Anyway if anyone as any ideas I'm at my wits end. I even put in campden tables into my RO water!

Dan

 

[erikhild59]

Did you add any minerals to you're r.o. water? That can be as bad as tyhe wrong minerals. Also, do you ferment in plastic? Perhaps oxidizing in the bucket? What sanitizer?

 

[danio]

I get 2 sets of 5 gallon RO water. To each of those I add 1tsp gypsum and 1tsp calcium chloride. I use one for strike (4.5 gal of the 5) and 1 container for sparge (3.5-3.8 gal of the 5 gal container).

I ferment in glass and I use sanstar mixture in a bucket.

 

[erikhild59]

Did you have a water report?

 

[SwampassJ]

The new brews with RO water and 1tsp lactic acid for sparge and 1 tsp lactic acid for strike water have less stale taste but its definitely there.

Anyway if anyone as any ideas I'm at my wits end. I even put in campden tables into my RO water!

Dan

I get 2 sets of 5 gallon RO water. To each of those I add 1tsp gypsum and 1tsp calcium chloride. I use one for strike (4.5 gal of the 5) and 1 container for sparge (3.5-3.8 gal of the 5 gal container).

I ferment in glass and I use sanstar mixture in a bucket.

This might be your problem. If you're using all of that water to get to your target volume you're ending up at
Calcium = 176ppm
Chloride = 158ppm
Sulfate = 214ppm

and you're adding a LOT of acid to the water as well. 1tsp is 5ml of acid. I usually use between .8-1.2ml in a mash and I've completely stopped using it in the sparge. EDIT I also use all RO water due to my tap sucking. Not much in the the RO in terms of bicarbonates/carbonates so it should not raise your grains ph much at all.

 

[danio]

Erikhild: I use 100% RO with those additions I mentioned.

Swamp: I did a batch with those same additions but no acid and same results. What would you recommend backing off from with the additions? Less gyp?

 

[SwampassJ]

Erikhild: I use 100% RO with those additions I mentioned.

Swamp: I did a batch with those same additions but no acid and same results. What would you recommend backing off from with the additions? Less gyp?

Use 1tsp of each for the entire batch. Just plug in the amounts into one of the brewing spread sheets like brun water or the EZ water calculator. You're using 1tsp of gypsum = 4grams and 1tsp of Calcium Chloride = 3.7grams (approximate values). Just treat the mash water or if you need to to get the mash ph in line put half of the dose in the mash and the final half into the boil.

 

[Darwin18]

How are you controlling your fermentation temperatures? Are you using liquid or dry yeast? Are you making a starter?

While an off-flavor derived from your water chemistry isn't impossible, off-flavors from stressed yeast or too high fermentation temperatures is more likely.

 

[danio]

I'm double pitching US-05 (and once S-04). They aren't huge brews, either. I haven't had this problem in 3 years until I switched to AG. Then my first 3 batches were awesome and the next 6 have been terrible, even the aged\carbonated ones. Switching to RO helped but not enough.

I'm controlling my temps by taping the johnson control thermometer to the side of the carboy in my standup freezer. I have it constant at 65F.

 

[SixFoFalcon]

Your wife was tainting your homebrew so you'd get fed up, stop brewing, and pay more attention to her. Her mistake was underestimating your determination.

On a serious note, are you sure the problem isn't farther down the line? Maybe something in your keg lines, faucets, etc.?

 

[danio]

hehe your first theory is quite possible ;-)

As far as your second, its a taste that perserveres from the first sample 7 days into the primary all the way to weeks in the keg under carbonation. So its definately a product of mashing\sparging\fermenting.

 

[erikhild59]

Is it possible that your post boil equipment is being contaminated by lactobaccillus from milling/crushing grain or even precrushed grain? The fact that you're extract brews were all ok and the first three a.g. beers were good makes me wonder if its infection taking hold. Maybe a deep clean with starsan on your fermenter and other large equipment and replcement of any tubing is in order. I feel you're pain , I had some issues with an infection and water chemistry troubles too. Just keep eliminating things, and you will be left with the answer.

 

[danio]

I suppose an infection is possible. I've been bombing my equipment almost every batch with idodophor and then star san. Also there is no surface scum even after weeks and weeks. It would have to be my funnel - I've soaked it for hours at a time but its the one piece of plastic i haven't replaced. I'm going with spring water for tonight's brew with no additions. I'll also replace funnel, airlock and stopper. I won't use my wine theif i'll use a sanitized piece of glassware to dip in and get a sample. We'll see!

Just tasted a 2 month old batch from tap water days. Tastes like horrible medicine now. Recently carbonated batches with RO + additions taste ok but not great. Kinda stale. Very curious about my spring water (walmart shipped from their plant in Tacoma WA).

EDIT: Recently I've been soaking my carboy in PBW for a day or two, as well.

 

[SwampassJ]

How well are you rinsing after the PBW?

 

[danio]

Pretty well, although maybe not perfectly? But the flavor has been there before I even was using it. I'm brewing as we speak with spring water. I got all new plastic today too. It might take me 40 years and thousands of bad batches but one day I'll realize what stupid thing I'm doing that's ruining my beer!

Next step if this doesn't work is try an extract batch again. I did great batches for years with extract.

 

[erikhild59]

Good luck brotha!

 

[danio]

Weeeeeellllllllllllllllll...................that didn't fix it.

I just brewed my spring water batch (no additions, no lactic acid) and I got pretty much the exact same beer.

So here is a sort of table or matrix of Bad Beers over the past few months:

Name - Water used - Flavor - Sparge Method

Three diff. IPAs - Tap water - Awesome...did Tricerahops, pliny, winter ale - Fly
Tricerahops - Tap water - Cardboard\astringency turning to medicine - Fly
SN Celebration - RO +CaCL\Gyp - Cardboard\Astringency but no medicine - Batch
IPA - Same but also Lactic Acid - Cardboard\Astringency but no medicine - Batch
SN Celebration - Spring Water - Cardboard\Astringency but no medicine - Batch

I think the bad medicine flavor in the first batch was from the same problem I'm having now compounded with chloramine suddenly being in my water. The water dep. says they switch wells sometimes. That is now fixed I think, hence no medicine but the cardboard etc remains. That could be a bad hypothesis

Also I've been sanitizing more and more thoroughly each time...soaking for HOURS in PBW then sanstar, replaced all plastic parts, etc. These beers are so astringent they make your tongue go numb in the back for a long time. Tongue is numb right now as a matter of fact.

I gave some to a friend (thought I might be crazy) and she said they had a finish that reminded her of newspaper\ink\cardboard. My Mash temp never gets very high and even the lactic acid OVERDOSE batch had it (2 tsp total) so I can't imagine I'm leaching tannins but maybe I am - post-sparge wort is mildly astringent. I never get above 168 during sparge. Could it be that I'm not immediately boiling my Wort from my first runnings and the reaction is continuing? Residue in mash tun? Reaction to wort chiller? It's only like 10 batches old. Maybe wort chiller + star san? As you can see, I'm banging my head against the wall for answers.

For those that weren't following this thread earlier, I had 3 awesome AG batches and now ALL new ones are bad. I refuse to think its an infection...this last batch it was all new plastic, a 2 hour PBW soak in a carboy and a 2 hour Sanstar soak. Flavor is there with or without PBW.

Finally this flavor is in very aged beer that has been primary\secondary\cold crash\kegged\conditioned. It maybe gets a bit milder but doesn't go away. My first three AG batches were awesome after 7 days in the primary! I even redid one of my first good recipes and the new ones were AWFUL. Sigh.

 

[jbsg02]

Are you sure your thermometer is accurate? Have you it against others?