Automated HERMS system

[blackheart]

Anyone have a recommendation on a false bottom / screen for both the MLT and Kettle. I'm thinking recirculating and whirlpooling in the kettle will lead to problems if I dont have a screen to catch some hops etc and the MLT one is a given.

So I'm looking for a suggestion + connection specifics. I found one here but I dont know what the SS tubing diameter is.

Thinking I saw someone use 2 of these before too.... Mash/Boil Screen

 

[Acidjazz54]

I use the first one and the tubing O.D. is 3/8". I have had no issues with it at all. I set it up to a 1/2" to 3/8" compression which allows me to easily take it out and clean it when I'm done. Not too much left at the bottom either. Just my .02.

 

[ThickHead]

First off, this has been a great thread to follow as this build is very similar to something that I have been attempting to envision, and the detail and feedback here has clarified alot for me. I want to wish you the best of luck and success with this build blackheart, it's looking great!

Having said that, I have a very newb question (I don't mean to hijack) about your sparging process which your schematic detail sort of brought up for me. In step 5 of your process flow diagram (shown below) are you recirculating your kettle wort and drawing fresh wort from your sparge simultaneously with the same pump? And if so, how are you controling flow rates utilizing the seperate pump for adding fresh sparge water?

And a general newbie plumbing question: Without valves at the end of the two Ts nearest the pump running your wort in the diagram above, wouldnt the pump pressure fill the lines connected to those Ts all the way up to the nearest valve on the line?

I apologize if these are spectacularly novice questions. I suppose I am being an opportunist here taking advantage of drawing a bit of knowledge from your design work.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I use the FB you have linked from NB, except I have the one that comes with no tube and a 1/2" hole. I made my own 1/2" dip tube to go through the center hole.

 

[blackheart]

I want to use the one with the tube preinstalled as I have no way to bend the SS tubing correctly and only need to bend tubing for the SS coil and whirlpool tube.

Question, Should we be using a O-ring on the inside AND outside of the keg? I have seen all the ones on NB use 2. One goes in the lock nut on the outside, the other between the washer and the inside.

What size Male NPT threaded pieces do I need to pass through the keg? 1"? 2"?

Here is a picture of the parts lists and item counts.

Also, I have updated the images of each vessel to reflect adding the temp probe to each as well as the specfics on the compression fittings.

Not sure I still fully understand the difference between compression, swagelock, and flare fittings.... but hoping to...

To answer your question, when sparging, to control flow rates we are going to change the speed of the pump, and/or use a float sensor to sparge as needed while controlling the output speed. This is done via software using PWM, which is turning on and off the motor really fast to control speed (same as a RC car)

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I only use one o-ring and think that is the best way to do it. I posted a diagram on the first page of this thread for reference.

You want to use 1/2" NPT close nipples.

I would still suggest going with 1/2" pickup tubes. If you have the dimensions and bends you need, you can just take the SS tubing to any good hardware store, talk tot he guys (or girls) in the service dept. and have them make the bends with you. I have done this for several things (taps and dies, other tools I don't have, etc.) and they are always interested to help.

I only say this because the flow works much better with the pumps when fed by at least a 1/2" tube. It will work with 3/8", but it is harder to prime/keep running smoothly.

 

[blackheart]

I agree with you... the false bottom with just the 1/2" hole looks better now that I think about it... I know a local hardware store that might be able to do the bending for me. They put a flare fitting on a piece of pipe for me one time.

I updated all of the images again including the parts list above to reflect more spefic parts etc.

I am assuming you are referring to 1/2" x 1" NPT close nipples... as MoreBeer sells 1" and 1.5" ... the 1.5" has a small gap with no threads in the center.... Just not sure how much space the valve/nut/Oring/washer/compression fitting will use up on the threads but I am guessing you would!

If we are using 1/2" SS 304 tubing for everything then it makes sense to buy in bulk for the coil + all of the dip tubes.... mainly because the HERMS coil is a bit different and simpler than a normal chiller bc its more like a light bulb filament with a coil and connectors on each end. I saw an article on how to make your own with a lathe, which my friend has, but still does not sound easy....

How long should the HERMS coil be for the 15gal HLT? 25-50 I would assume. I plan on cutting 12" openings in each so the coil will be maybe 11" with maybe 1/2" spacing between coils(more SA) I just need to get an estimate of how much SS tubing we need so I can get looking for it.

Also need an estimate for the 1/2" silicon tubing... its like $2 a foot so I dont want to go nuts with extra 20 feet etc...

And another question that has popped into my head.... how to clamp the 1/2" ID 3/4" OD tubing to the outside of the barbed SS fitting on the TC connectors.... worm gears? ears? something else? I talked to the guy who makes the custom ones I posted earlier, he says he is working on a new design where the tubing goes over a single bulge and then a cap/sleeve goes over the outside and threads into the back of the TC and sandwiches the tubing between the bulge inside and the sleeve on the outside. Sounds cool and nice finished look but could be 6-8weeks until they are finished!!

Also talked to the guy from the diesel place... He has some great prices and exactly what we need so I think we are going to place an order shortly with him.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

The cheapest stainless coil I have been able to find is this one:

McMaster # 8989K98

I don't know what length you will need because I have never used a hybrid chilling style like you are going to. It also depends on how fast you want your cooling to be. I hate waiting for my chilling wort so I went overboard and use two 50' coils. I can also chill 12 gallons from boiling to lager temps in about 12 minutes.

Maybe 25' is enough, I think I would lean toward 50', but I am no expert.

The close nipple should have threads all across it with no flat/straight portion. You need the threads to meet to get a proper compression of the o-ring.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

For the tubing, maybe buy that last and then you can estimate with pieces of string how much you will need????

 

[blackheart]

Well I have been shopping around all day... So far I found the swagelok fittings on ebay, 5 normal, 2 90deg and ordered those... $13 for the strait and $20 for the 90's each. Not bad prices I guess.

I was looking at some stuff like this coil for jockey boxes. Its 50' of 3/8" pre coiled ready to go... I am sure I could unbend enough of it to make the connections I need but it is 3/8th... I think I saw something similar on NB.

Also found what appears to be a great price on false bottoms Am I missing something or is this a great deal?

Almost all of the other parts need to be ordered via various home brew stores. I think I am going to triple check everything and look around the house to see what else we need before we start placing orders at those places.

What size hole am I drilling to fit the 1/2" threaded fitting into and what bit/drill should I use?

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

That coil looks fine, but the stainless I linked above is 1/2" 50' for only $73.

That false bottom looks fine to me, I can't confirm that though. Maybe it is worth the chance???

Search Ebay for "Unibit" and buy one of the clearance priced Irwin step bits that comes up. You need a 7/8" hole size for weldless fittings. I drill a small pilot hole, then use the step bit lubed with vegi oil to 7/8" then touch up with a file to get a nice tight fit. That will greatly help with no leak connections.

 

[blackheart]

Still trying to secure 10 SS valves.... the Diesel place only has 8 right now... in 12v... but have plenty in 120AC ... Anyone have an oppinion on 12vdc vs 120vac ?

 

[Acidjazz54]

Still trying to secure 10 SS valves.... the Diesel place only has 8 right now... in 12v... but have plenty in 120AC ... Anyone have an oppinion on 12vdc vs 120vac ?

I was personally leaning towards the 12V due to power usage (18 Watts vs 33 Watts) but I would be interested to see what other people say as well. The one down fall to 12V is you need some sort of power supply (which isn't a big deal especially at only 1.5A).

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I think it depends what kind of switched you are using. If you are using relays and 12v switches anyway, it would be easier to use 12v solenoids.

 

[weirdboy]

I really hate to beat a dead horse on this, but I still don't see how you're going to control the mash and sparge volumes without any flow meters, float sensors, etc. Maybe they're just not listed in the parts lists or diagrams, but if your goal really is to have this thing automated, you need to solve that problem I'd think.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

He could use a pressure based volume sensor. That would be pretty easy.

 

[blackheart]

I saw float sensors on MoreBeer. We plan on using them to control volume. So far we have only discussed 1/3 systems in the automated brewing system, the liquid side. There is also a gas and electronic component

The gas component is fairly strait forward once we have the right valves and burners. The electronic setup is also pretty easy, connect sensors (inputs) and motors/valves(outputs) to a micro controller/relays and start programing(the hard part)

The key is getting the mechanical system work and ready to program as much time will be spent making the system do what we want it to after it is assembled.

I was leaning towards 12v as it would be easy to do 12v with a simple relay. 120v means +10x more 120v SSR relays and heat sinks... that sounds a bit much to me... Here is a link to a huge picture of the overall parts of the system and a link to the same picture with parts colored in green which we have or have ordered....

Master

Master Checklist

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I think this might be up your ally....

Wort-O-Matic: The Liquid Level Doctor

 

[beerthirty]

Been a few days since I was here. Try Online Metal Store | Small Quantity Metal Orders | Metal Cutting, Sales & Shipping | Buy Steel, Aluminum, Copper, Brass, Stainless | Metal Product Guides at OnlineMetals.com for your tubing needs. Depending on wall thickness and whether you chose seamed or not, their prices are hard to beat. For one time bending take your tube into Lowes and use a conduit bender. I told them my boss wanted to check the bending ability before buying.
For sparging water level use a float on an adjustable rod in the mash tun. A volume sensor can be used in the HLT for the sparging volume. 120 volt valves require less amperage(easier on the relays) to operate than 12 volt, but may need sheilding of the power wires to prevent noise and crosstalk. Sheilding to reduce noise and crosstalk is what I'm currently working on with my rig.

 

[blackheart]

Cool, I just looked at the wort-o-matic. That seems pretty interesting.

Still debating the 12v vs 120v on the valves....

Just sent MoreBeer $200+ for a variety of parts, mostly the bulk head fittings. If you click the link above you can see the updated picture is nearly entirely green. Only 5 more pieces to go for the liquid, TC barbed fittings, Silicon tube, SS tube, False bottom, and the valves.

waiting to hear back from people on most of those things so I think we are moving forward with the rest of the design... going to try to source the electronic gas valves, fittings, and burners. I cant seem to find a NG burner thats not the torch tip. Anyone have a link?

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

the hurricane burner is a popular one. It is available from Northernbrewer for pretty cheap and in parts.

 

[Acidjazz54]

I saw float sensors on MoreBeer. We plan on using them to control volume. So far we have only discussed 1/3 systems in the automated brewing system, the liquid side. There is also a gas and electronic component

The gas component is fairly strait forward once we have the right valves and burners. The electronic setup is also pretty easy, connect sensors (inputs) and motors/valves(outputs) to a micro controller/relays and start programing(the hard part)

The key is getting the mechanical system work and ready to program as much time will be spent making the system do what we want it to after it is assembled.

I was leaning towards 12v as it would be easy to do 12v with a simple relay. 120v means +10x more 120v SSR relays and heat sinks... that sounds a bit much to me... Here is a link to a huge picture of the overall parts of the system and a link to the same picture with parts colored in green which we have or have ordered....

Master

Master Checklist

I was just remembering a post that Yuri made a while back regarding a digital sight glass. If you want everything to be truly automatic you could go this route. The pressure in the tube basically determines the amount of water in the tank depending on the temperature of the water and the overall height of your sight glass. Pretty simple mathematics really (programming is a different story)

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/digital-sight-glass-84785/

 

[blackheart]

Thats a pretty sweet thread on the sight glass. I saw a few people are actually using the same micro controller and digital sensors effectively.

I was looking at the hurricane burner on NB here but no where does it say that it is for NG nor can I see how to hook it up to anything or mount it or the BTU's its putting out.... I might call NB later today and see what the deal is....

We have seen many setups that are similar to the brutus but have basically a removable gas system. The burners are connected via pipe in a W formation with the burners extending under the brew stand and the pipes resting on hooks on the rear of the stand. It looks like the entire system can easily be adjusted or removed entirely quite easily. I believe this is what we plan on doing to some degree. This way the height of the burners could be easily adjusted if needed or the gas removed to transport or clean the system.

I believe the stand will now be made last as we check our final measurements when we have some of this assembled. I also want to add the tippy dump to the stand as I can see thats quite useful. How are the kegs attached to the bottoms of the tippy dumps so they dont just fall out??

Ordered a few more things so far this morning.... picked up 3 false bottoms just because they were super cheap. I found them on ebay and messaged the seller. He said he gets 4x8' sheets of SS mesh and makes them himself. They are $25 vs $50 on NB etc. Here is the Link

Also picked up a Apple Airport Express. Going to connect this up to the network to extend WiFi coverage into the brewery a bit more solid. Also, it will connect to the media server in the house enabling it to stream music into the garage, and the best part, it will be controllable via our iPhones/iPod touches/any computer running iTunes.

Going to investigate gas valves and burners today. Hoping to find what we need.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Natural Gas Valve for Hurricane Burner - Burners - Equipment

that's the NG orifice.

 

[blackheart]

I found some promising looking NG valves on ebay. Not sure if the valve also operates the pilot or if thats a seperate thing all together. Here is 2 that I found. Can anyone confirm or link me to a good one?

First

Second

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I know Sawdustguy has a "burner control for dummies" thread around (or something like that) that shows the parts and general idea of how these systems work. I haven't planned that stuff out yet so I would talk to him if I were you.

 

[beerthirty]

For tippy dump I made a square frame out of angle, welded hinges between the square frame and main frame then bolted the keg to the square frame. If you go this route use 2" angle so the holes will be high enough to clear the rolled lip of the keg.

 

[blackheart]

Ah I see now. That seems pretty strait forward for making the dumps. Quick question on your system beerthirty, what type of connector are you using to make the silicon tubing terminate into a threaded end? Brew42 - HomeBrewTalk Gallery

So after looking around the internets the best bet for NG seems to be the hurricane with the NG valve added. Not really sure on the valves yet though. Does the electronic valve also include a pilot system? ( gas line + sparker ) or is that separate or does it not even connect to the electronic valve at all? I found the thread you were talking about and it had some info. Need to go home and measure but I think the NG on the wall is 1" so have to figure out what size pipe to use for the hard plumbing on the rig and disconnects, hose, and adaptors to use to connect it all up. Most of the stuff appears to be 1/2" or 3/4"... back to the internet for more searching!

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

The way I understand those pilot systems is, you have pilot unit that allows gas to flow to the pilot burner and will shutdown the main line gas if the pilot burner has no flame detected.

This is another good thread:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/gas-burners-love-ts-pilot-light-demo-64899/

I can't decide if I want to do a standing pilot or a spark ignition system. I think I am leanign toward a spark ignition system at this point because I am worried about the (albeit) small flame continually burning a small point on my mash and kettles. Maybe that is dumb, but it is a concern of mine.

 

[blackheart]

here is a response from one of the aboved linked valves sellers on ebay

"My main question is to confirm that you are wanting a valve that shuts on and off to maintain the temp- not a valve that is running constantly and adjusting the level of gas it's letting through the valve. A modulating valve, like that, would be much more expensive. I assume you will have some type of thermostat to shut the gas on and off with? I'll wait to hear back- thanks and have a great day!"

not really sure what he means.... not really sure how you guys are all using electronic valves to control gas flow from low to high etc not just on/off... help?